Magdalena Karlick: It's a Dance

In this episode Sam Haid, former student and current supervisee and dear human, interviews the host! 

Sam Haid is a licensed counselor, art therapist, and artist currently residing in Colorado. He is licensed in Colorado, New Mexico, and a nationally registered art therapist. Sam is a queer, gay cisgender man of European descent. Sam is the founder of Infinite Wheel, a private practice supporting predominantly LGBTQ+ individuals in Colorado and New Mexico. Sam has worked in a variety of settings including community health agencies, community art therapy studios, youth shelters, and private group practice. He has co-facilitated several therapeutic groups. Sam received his Masters in Art Therapy/Counseling from Southwestern College in Santa Fe, New Mexico in 2021 and his Bachelors of Fine Arts from The School of the Art Institute of Chicago in 2016.

Magdalena Karlick, Ph.D-c, ATR-BC, LPCC is the owner of Our Imaginal World an organization that provides individual and group therapy, arts and somatic based supervision, post graduate education, community health consultation for agencies, as well as commissioned art installations.  She has been an educator in the Art Therapy, Expressive Arts, and Counseling fields since 2012, focusing on Cultural Humility, Somatic Awareness, Ethics, Group Dynamics, and Creative Arts Techniques. Currently she teaches for the Kint Institute in NYC, a post-graduate creative arts therapy and trauma training in-person program. For a number of years she was the Art Director for Tomorrow’s Women, working with Palestinian and Israeli youth during an international summer camp intensive in New Mexico, and co-created a trauma therapy support network for staff and alumnae of this program during the most recent outbreak of violence. 

The Boundaries & Belonging Podcast focuses on educators in the United States, who are teaching in colleges and universities, In graduate and Ph.D programs within the expressive arts therapies umbrella.

Episode recorded on 9/20/24.

Transcript

0:02

Hi everybody. I am really excited, interested, and a little nervous about this episode. I am here with Sam Haid, who is a licensed counselor and a nationally registered art therapist located in Colorado. And you are the founder of Infinite Wheel a private practice supporting LGBTQIA++ +, folks in Colorado and New Mexico. And we have, I think, a special relationship. You are a former student of mine and have been a supervisee for years now. And you're going to interview me today. And I am excited. I'm excited. Thank you so much for agreeing to this, for being here, and for being you. I'm super happy to be here and really honored that you wanted me to be a part of this process. Yes, I think that we really have great conversations and, you know, great rapport. So this feels, this feels good. Yay. And I've listened to all of the preceding podcasts and episodes. So I definitely understand the intention behind, or at least I feel like I do the intention behind what you're doing here. Well, all right, I'm gonna take the reins. you know, the name of your podcast, Boundaries and Belonging, I'm curious to know what does belonging look like to you, Magdalena? And what do boundaries look like to you in the classroom as an educator, as an art therapist? Thank you. Well, you know, I guess I'll start with boundaries. As somebody who is highly sensitive and navigates kind of deep empathy, boundaries can be really challenging. You know, the conversation that has happened over many episodes around the different roles of being like teacher versus therapist and how to hold them in the classroom. That is something that I've navigated with challenges over the last decade plus as an educator in higher ed. There's these parts of me that feel really deeply when my students are in a lot of pain. so it's that the choice points around how to support rather than enable, like what types of When is "no" appropriate? When is "yes" appropriate? Those places, those places show up so often when working as an educator in therapeutic arts programs because we're navigating such a deep territory all the time. All the time, you know, we're writing reflection papers about how X, Y, and Z impacts you, right? We're asking folks to create artworks about sometimes about their some traumatic relationships, about family relationships, about you know who they are, about their identity, which of course is always evolving. And so It's like waves, you know, it's like this movement, this constant movement when working with humans to figure out what is the boundary, what is my role. And I know that what's the most helpful is for me to speak to that, you know, to speak to, I'm really feeling, I'm feeling you, I'm feeling that things are showing up in ways that are making it hard for you to... follow through with an assignment, X, and Z, how can I accommodate? And these are the limits. It has to be in by this time. It needs to be focusing on this, whatever the assignment is. But boundaries show up in so many different ways in the classroom, from how our body boundaries, how close we are in proximity, if we're in person. The choices that I make as a facilitator around, yes, we can dive into what this one person brought up that's a bit of a tangent, or no, we are not gonna do that and I have to compassionately interrupt you, right? It's quite a, it's a dance, you know, teaching. How do you discern that of when to go down that tangent versus when to not to? And I'm hearing, of course, the external boundary reminding or expressing, but within that, the internal kind of gauge of where your boundaries are located that day and what feels maybe where you are versus what is maybe... how it evolves or how it shifts day to day in and out of the classroom. Does that make sense? Okay. because it yeah, it may be there is some shifts day to day, right? Depending on what's happening, what I'm bringing with me, you know, I think and that's that's an important piece, right? How am I regulating my nervous system? What am I bracketing off so that I am not dissociating into another storyline, right? And the practicing of presence really is, I think it's just the most important practice to orient to my body, to the environment, to breath, and then orienting to the group. I mean, it's like this practice of like checking in with what's happening with the group, sometimes, right, sometimes that might be a projection and sometimes that might be intuition. Right? Somebody's body language that may be closed off and cranky looking might have nothing to do with the classroom. And so there really is a lot of discerning, you know, and yet as the facilitator of the space, I can feel into whether other folks are present or not. Right? Is this tangent that's coming in serving the whole group or is it serving this one person? And if it's serving this one person, then my goal is to see them, to communicate that I see them, and then to redirect it to the group. And it is this interesting, ooh, where am I? Where are you? What are we doing here? What's the goal today? What time is it? How do you do that? How do you express that? Hey, I see you, thank you and... I mean, it's some of that language. It's like, that's a really interesting thing that you're bringing up. We can't deepen into that right now. I can say this about it, and let's move towards this. And if somebody, know, sometimes there are students that... Maybe it's that day, maybe it's a consistent thing. Just have this, it's like act hunger. We call it act hunger in psychodrama. A need to take up the space, to be seen, to be responded to. And some of the work is like helping them rein that in. And that can be done with the group norms that we talk about, the beginning of beginning of the quarter or the semester, and then reminders. Like, let's remember that it's really important that we make sure that the space that we take up is not more or less than anybody else. Like, how do we take responsibility for how much space we take up? Oof, boy, I feel like that's a life learning. Yeah, and I imagine, or it makes sense that it would facilitate belonging by validating where that person is or the embodied need to take up space or be noticed, and at the same time holding that boundary, which supports people in knowing where those limits are, and then it also offers up other space for other people to then come in and be a part of the group or part of community. Yeah, I mean, I think so, I hope so. That's an intention, an active intention. Over the last year of thinking about and exploring belonging, something that's shown up for me is that... I believe that it's our responsibility to belong to ourselves and that in the group space, trust will be tested at times, our heart will be impacted in different ways, and there'll be multiple opportunities to practice trust and to practice like entering into belonging. And I just. I guess I'm feeling into the imperfection of belonging, that it's not necessarily a constant state, if that makes sense. And in the classroom... In the classroom, I do believe that boundaries, explicit boundaries, flexibility, follow through, accountability, that those are part of the, I guess, tenets of experiencing belonging in the classroom. And I believe that the art process too is a big part of that, right? So expressing oneself, feeling safe enough to deepen into expression and be seen in the process that could be like, you know, really messy or really small or anywhere in between or outside. So being seen in that process, especially if you're in person, obviously it's different if we are meeting online. And then having the opportunity to share or to say no to sharing. All impact the experience of belonging for the students and for the teacher. I mean, I think that that's kind of an interesting wondering too is what are the expectations around belonging for the teacher? And I think that they're often pretty implicit until there's a rupture. you know, until perhaps there's something that the educator has, maybe it's something that I've done in the group that caused harm. And when that rupture happens, there's an experience of like, well, I, do I belong here? Am I, am I doing this right? Am I meant for this work? You know, and I think, that those questions can be echoed on the other side too when someone doesn't necessarily feel like they belong in the class or in the program. the distance, the self doubt. And then what does it look like then to, you know, how does maybe repair help create a deeper sense of belonging? Yes. my gosh, what an important process. That's where the accountability comes in. that part can be hard for anyone on either side of the power dynamic. Mm -hmm. Or when you talk about belonging to ourselves, even with our value system or how we gauge what that accountability looks like, how do we come back to ourselves and that belonging through that self -doubt or shame or guilt, that rupture and then that repair, whether it's with the community, the class, the teacher or ourselves. I'm curious about why boundaries and why belonging? Where did this come from? What? What led you down this inquiry? And in your previous sessions or episodes, you talk a lot about heartbreak and heartache. And I'm curious if heartache and heartbreak has something to do with the inquiry. Okay. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. mean, I have so as a student and as an educator, I have experienced heartbreak. As a student and as an educator, I have witnessed heartbreak being experienced. that there's been a range of there's a range of examples. And what and what my experience and the understanding of the experience of others has been that rupture, especially when it's not repaired with humility or not repaired at all. deeply impacts belonging. And when a teacher's boundaries or a student's boundaries are incredibly rigid, like they're not even boundaries, right? They're borders or they're walls. When they're incredibly rigid, it's very difficult to have repair. It's very difficult for accountability to show up. And so that flexibility around boundaries I believe is important as well as direct communication around mistakes or accountability. I can think of facilitators that I've had that I didn't feel safe in their group because or in their classroom because there were no boundaries, right? There were no group norms. was things were just kind of, they weren't witnessing. what was happening in the group dynamic. I will say that I do have a bit of hypervigilance when it comes to tracking, tracking the group. And I'm sure that's rooted in me making sure I'm safe, right? It's this practice, like what's happening with every single person in this group all the time. And I do that and I've done that as a student and as an educator. And so part of my work is like raining that shit in, letting people have their feelings, not being a caretaker, people pleaser all the time, you know, or at least, you know, part of the time. So, you know, that's where it comes from. It comes from students who have had experiences with teachers who can't see them, whether it's because of their identity, their background, their neurodivergence, their mental health challenges, that their teacher doesn't see them, pathologizes them, tries to get them to fit into a box, doesn't work. So I've had many students come to me for consultation around experiences with other educators and Sometimes that bridge work is really challenging. Often when folks have really rigid, like a really rigid structure, so this is the other side, right? A really rigid structure, they can be really hard to approach. And when you approach, the defenses are very strong, right? I'm not racist. I'm not trans, I'm not homophobic. I'm not transphobic, you know? Okay, well, I hear what you're saying and there's this thing that's happened and it'd be great if we could talk about it, you know, and when we can't talk about it, there's just so much heartbreak, you know, and just that rupture around, do I belong here? Is this the right place for me as who I am? Those questions come up. And unfortunately, you know, students who are of the global majority, students who are marginalized because of their identities. That is a more common experience in multiple systems. And so, you know, coming into a place that... speaks to being here for the healing when those when those things show up it's like a smack in the face you know it's like wait a minute aren't we here to to heal isn't that what we're doing here you know Right. And so it makes me think about when you talk about that bridging or maybe that advocacy that you've had to do previously as another educator, kind of that lateral conversation to support maybe a student. It makes me think about how you view your responsibilities as an educator or how they've evolved and changed. And perhaps how this whole inquiry that you are investigating, where does the question about responsibility come into play? Yeah, thank you. I think that that's like the most important, one of the most important questions. know, when I started my doctoral work, my question was, what is safety? And then it shifted to what are my responsibilities as an educator? You know, or what are the responsibilities as an educator? And part of that shift is because The experience of safety is so multifaceted and influenced by so many factors that we can't as educators, as folks in power positions, assume safety of anybody, you the experience of safety in a group. Like that's just not something that we can assume. And so, you know, when I think about my responsibilities, it comes back to the conversation earlier about boundaries. You know, it's my responsibility to have boundaries and to be, you know, to be clear about what my bounds are as a facilitator, as an educator, as a human. And it's my responsibility to also be me, to be human, to, you know, be clear when I make mistakes and really try to interrupt mistakes and biases that are harmful in the moment. And if not in the moment, in the next moment, if not in the next moment, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Those feel like really important responsibilities. And the discernment that I have been, you know, navigating, you know, again, comes to letting people have their feelings. You know, it's my responsibility to not feel for other people. That's a really big one. I think in my life to, yeah, yeah, it's a really big one. you know that when I haven't had that boundary and it's still a, it's a boundary absolute that I continue to practice. That's when I might, that's when my people pleasing behavior might come out, which, you know, is manipulative and controlling. You know, the thing about being a people pleaser at times is that it's actually like the way those of us who do it, the way we keep from having to like feel other people's feelings, you know, and that's not helpful. That's not helpful. And there's it's not truthful either at times. You know, when when I'm not. When I am. taking responsibility for other people's experiences and feelings. There's probably many things that I'm enabling. It's kind of disempowering, right, for the other person. it's, there's all kinds of words that are coming into my head that I'm not gonna use. It's just a practice that I don't want to do, you know, for the benefit of all of us. Right? Because it's also not comfortable for me to, care take other people's feelings. Not to say that I want to keep caring, but care taking and feeling like I'm responsible for is a whole other strain, if that makes sense. It does. mean, it's rooted in co -dependence too. I mean, also, you know, As an educator in a creative therapeutic field, it makes sense that you also have to model what it's like to be present with a person's feelings and honor it while not internalizing it or taking it and shifting it into something that really is more about yourself or us rather than them. So it's, what I'm hearing you say is like, it's for you, it's a part of your value system and the way that you identify your responsibilities as a human, but also an educator. But it's also for modeling and kind of supporting the students. And like, this might be what a healthy internal or external boundary looks like for holding heavy emotions or stories, et cetera. yes. Yeah, absolutely. think that as educators in these programs, are models. We're models for what it can look like to be a teacher, right? And also what it can look like to be a therapist, you know? And so we can't, as educators in therapeutic arts programs, we can't let go. completely of the therapeutic part of ourselves because we're modeling active listening. We're modeling compassionate interrupting, right? And reflection. And so it's, they're inextricably woven. Totally. I I think about how I show up, you know, I'm pretty new into the field and I think about how I often show up with some of my clients and I feel like I directly pull from some of the ways that you've modeled that feel aligned with kind of my values or how I want to show up or the intention and care, while also the gentle boundary. And it's been, it feels great because I feel like I feel empowered in how I show up with my client and it feels supportive and gentle and honoring while still containing, if that makes sense. Yeah. that gesture. Honoring and containing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious to know. I mean, so, you know, we're talking a little bit about your responsibilities as a teacher, the boundaries you hold. I'm curious to know just on kind of a big picture scale, how you how you view yourself as an educator and how you moved from art therapy into somatic experiencing and to expressive arts therapies. What's kind of like your overall philosophy? Big broad question, but I'm curious. thank you for that. Let's see. Well, I mean, I believe that we are all creative beings. Each one of us has access to creativity and it can show up in lots of different ways. I believe that our bodies hold all of the answers. Even when they have been the site of trauma, even when they are potentially the site of dysphoria. they still, our bodies hold the wisdom. And then I guess the third tenet is love. Love and connection is a practice and it's ultimately the most important communication. Whether it's towards myself, towards you, towards the group, towards the world, towards the earth. It's an important practice and form of communication that I believe deeply in. I believe it's more important than grades. It's an important aspect of how we can be together, you know, and I really believe that the way that we are together ripples out to the way we are with others and the way they are with others, et cetera, et cetera. I really do believe that we all have big impact. And that's one of the reasons why I love teaching because I believe, I believe in the power of love. I believe in the power of, you know, supporting folks to root into their bodies and then to externalize through, you know, movement or. you know, visual arts expression or sound to know oneself deeper and to connect to others more, even more authentically. So all of those pieces are really important aspects of how I teach, you know, and why I teach. I believe that teaching is social justice work. both from like a love perspective, but also from like being able to speak directly. or about things that are challenging, whether it's race, age, ableism, one's sexuality, one's trauma history, like being able to bring some of those things out. in community is social justice work. Mm. And in terms of my own journey as an educator, have, before I went to Southwestern College for my master's in art therapy and counseling, I've always worked with families and kids and in schools. So there's always been an aspect of teaching in the work that I've done really since I was a kid or facilitating. And then, You know, an art therapy and counseling program is just a jump off, right? You learn a lot and then you learn like, wow, there's just so much more to learn, right? And I first fell in love with psychodrama. Kate Cook was my psychodrama professor at the time. And through working with her, I fell in love with somatics. And I realized, my gosh, I have this body that is magical and intuitive and holds a lot of pain and how do I communicate through and with it more? And that's was when I got into somatic experiencing. I started that program I think my last year as a graduate student and deepening my understanding of the nervous system, deepening my understanding of the different ways that we hold, we release. we soothe or don't, all has informed my humaning. My humaning as a human in this world, as a mama, as a partner, as a daughter, as a sister, as a friend, and also my work as an educator. Our bodies are our tools in our life and in our work. And so, the discernment that I was talking about earlier in terms of like, you know, where are these boundaries around like how I feel you and what I do with that is part of that work, you know? And then from there, you know, I've been trained in sand play, loving like working with symbol, like 3D symbol and metaphor and story, you know, that doesn't have to be verbal. mean, there's so much work that we can do that where we don't actually have to narrate the story to heal what's happening, which is kind of exciting, you know, because sometimes narrating, not always, you know, of course, but sometimes narrating the story just kind of, either deadens it or keeps retraumatizing the system. So how do we use story, play, symbol, movement to access other parts of the story and to access other ways to heal what needs to be healed? And then I was teaching probably for about five years and I felt really good about it. I'm like, I'm a great teacher and I feel like I've hit the ceiling. How do I get better? And that's why I went to the European Graduate School for to start their postgraduate program in expressive arts and then to continue on with doctoral work. wanted to learn different ways to be expressive and I wanted to learn different ways to facilitate. And I also have wanted different opportunities to teach. that are experiential based, not as academic, know, not a lot. No, we're not grading. Sure, there's assessment, but we're not like, you know, following rubrics. just, I'm not as interested in that anymore. You know, over, especially the last few years of teaching, I realized I just got more of a visceral understanding of the colonial practices of higher ed, right? From... from grading to gatekeeping to professionalism and how so much of that is rooted in white supremacy. So much of that is rooted in perfectionism. I just don't want to do that anymore, you know? Which is part of the reason why I left working in in that environment specifically. do, I am, I mean, I am still an educator. offer workshops in all kinds of ways for community health consultation work for organizations that reach out that are looking for team building, that are looking for cultural competency work, et cetera. And I also teach at Kint Institute, which is a postgraduate program in New York focused on trauma training through the creative arts. And I do the... you know, symbol, metaphor, art therapy module. So, you know, it's like figuring out different ways to facilitate and to be in a collaborative space where we are, you know, the teacher and the students are working together, or we're learning together. You know, while I may have more experience in these ways, the experience of the group is just as valuable. So I guess that's another important aspect of my teaching philosophy is that, you know, the more that I can lessen the power dynamic through clear communication, through my accountability and humility, and really empowering the voice of the group, empowering the voice of the individuals of the group, I think the better. Mm -hmm. Whoo! Yeah, that's a great answer. I mean, you touched briefly on humility. And so it makes me curious about what your relationship is with humility, how that's evolved. And you also touched upon gatekeeping. And I'm curious about what that negotiation has been like for you as you talk about maybe some of the disillusionment of maybe certain academic spaces. and wanting to kind of those feeling out of alignment, how gatekeeping has evolved. I can assume that maybe gatekeeping, there's a relationship there. Yeah, so I'm curious about both of those aspects as well, what that's like for you. yeah, thank you. Well, humility. is connected to presence. It's connected to... facilitating with love, you know, it's connected to accountability. You know, I, as a curriculum developer, I have been driven to like, how, how do I keep bringing in more voices, more perspectives? How do I keep making sure that this this course offers a huge spectrum of belief and experience so that the students can, and I can continue to expand our perspective on life. You know, I really encourage myself, the folks that I accompany, you know, no matter what the context is to, explore deeper our biases around what is health, what is relationship, what is love, and how our biases around these concepts and others can impact how we see, you know, or hear, or how we are in relationship, where our fears are, where our lack of experience is and you know that all of that is in humility and I think that humility gets impacted when we are or gets hindered when we are in fear. And so part of the practice is to reduce fear, to notice it. to not dismiss it or numb it, to hear it and reduce it so as to be able to be more present, you know, once again. I just really believe that all of our abilities to be present in the moment helps us interrupt bias. Rhonda McGee has a really great book about this in particular, how mindfulness is the work, is the work to interrupt harm, to interrupt bias, to interrupt racism. Because the more connected we are with how our body and mind are moving and working, the more able we are to interrupt, you know, to do that meta work inside of ourselves. And that's a humility practice. And then, you know, that is directly related to gatekeeping. You know, Gatekeeping is a pretty controversial term in our field and other fields. I mean, there's like the huge swing of spectrum. Like, yes, of course I'm a gatekeeper to like, holy shit, let them all in, you know? And both... both ends of the spectrum are problematic. You know, One of the things that I've learned through all of these interviews is... or maybe learned, reminded that... the role of gatekeeping is related to public good. And yet, gatekeeping itself is mired with bias. And the gatekeepers are mired with bias. And so how do we actually make these decisions when we have power roles, right? And it's from grading. in the classroom. mean, even before that, right, it's creating the curriculum, it's deciding on what the assignments are, it's, you know, being in conversation about rubrics, what does grading actually mean when we know that it's rooted in colonialism, you know. So there's that, like how we grade is gatekeeping, and then how we assess a student, the conversations that we have with the student versus the conversations that we have with maybe the student success team or other colleagues or the department chair about that student, right? What are the ways that we support students and why? It's just all of those pieces. And then of course, like, what does it mean to be an arts -based therapist? What does that look like? What are the characteristics? and are all of those characteristics that are assumed or expected, are they culturally relevant? Are they culturally relevant for the therapist in training? Are they culturally relevant for the potential future clients? So I say all that to say that it's complicated. And And the responsibility in power positions of doing that humility, presence, interrupting of bias work is necessary. And if we don't do that work, then we will cause harm. Mm So no matter what kind of power position you're in, we all have some sort of power position, some of us more than others, of course. the less internal space we have, the more potential harm we can cause, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think listening through your podcast episodes, the the understanding of gatekeeping as you kind of as you you expressed earlier as being a framework for thinking about or being in service of public good or doing little harm or you know, is it supportive for maybe this student, et cetera, to move forward, engage with the public in this way? Do they have the capacity to handle it? Can they regulate their own emotions, et cetera? And then, so like that makes the most sense to me. And then at the same time, how much do we really know? And what kind of work are they gonna be doing? And where does our own bias come into play of like, what is gauged or deemed to be healthy or appropriate versus what is not and why. Gray area. So much gray area. Yeah, I had another question, but I totally blanked related to that. Hmm. Let's see. can edit. Yeah, it's all good. Hmm, what was I gonna say? I'm trying to think. It must have happened. Maybe it'll come later. Mm -hmm. See. So you've talked about kind of love being a root reason for doing this work. And you've also talked about in previous episodes when the third comes into play, whether that is with all of your students making art and sharing in that process, or whether it's with, or the art perhaps being that third, or... working directly with a client and it makes me curious about if love is kind of that third for you or where love kind of weaves into that understanding of the third or how do you, what's your awareness of the third as an educator with your students? I think that's a beautiful wondering because I think that love is a practice and I think that love also emerges like the third, right? That comes, That it's this new way, but love isn't a new way, but it can be a new way. You know, my experience of the third is awe. It's when we're in the group together and we... It's like we all connect at the same moment in a similar way. That's maybe one way it shows up. can think about, gosh, I can think about when something happened on that political landscape in the US that was draining and felt disorienting and disheartening to my group of students. And they all came into the class, this was before COVID, they all came into the class just heavy and like having trouble being present to our class about ethics. And except that it was really relevant. But so instead of like kind of pushing forward with the day's plan, I asked folks to drop into their bodies. I asked folks to... to do some sculptural work, which really is one of my most favorite things is to do body sculpture work with groups. so folks, you know, the whole group represented how they felt. So you would see folks sitting on the floor, head held. You'd see folks like leaning up against the wall, you know, with their head covered. Everybody was separate and isolated. And then my request was, let's just take just change one thing about your position about how you're holding your body to move towards what you want and By the we did that maybe like five times right like choose choose one more thing and by the end of it this group of humans They were either they were like in a circle either holding hands or hugging and looking at each other and they went from like isolation and despair to connection and love And it was incredible. Now seeing it out loud, yes, of course, we want to go to connection from isolation. Yes, like, yes. And the movement towards, right, taking that next best step as a former advisor of mine, Marcus Alexander would say, Dr. Marcus Alexander, what is the next best step? And each movement, they became closer and closer. And while being together in a circle in a loving way in connection wasn't something like that had never been experienced before, which is, you know, some of what's been written about the third, right? It's this, it's this emergence of a new, you know, Mm That love and connection wasn't exactly new in their experience, but it was new in that moment, right, in comparison to what the whole group came in with. wow, was incredible. I tears and chills and just a real honoring of that whole process of how important it is to be with what is, you know, and also to make choices towards what you want or what could be. Yeah, I'm thinking about, I mean, you know, in creative arts or expressive arts therapies, or at least in art therapy, there's the process versus product. And it makes me think about the third as being both process and product. The third being that cathartic sometimes connection or that release. And with this example, you gave that evolution into connection and solidarity and perhaps hope even amongst the grief being the third, but also the gradual evolution within each new gesture or the next best step being that third as well. Yes, absolutely. I think that the process is the emergence. I appreciate that reflection because both are important. How we get there and where we are. Yes. then also sometimes what we do with it, right? What we do with that third, whether we record it, rip it up, forget it. You know that that part's important to how do we integrate this this newness and also maybe how do we let go of it? Right, yeah, super important. Does it need to be purged? Or how do we wanna integrate it? Well, I know a good bit of what you're like as a professor and I'm curious to know more about materials in your classroom. What has been the most exciting or tantalizing or... potent for you, how has it evolved and shifted over the years versus also just as an expressive arts therapist as well, how does that shift? And also with COVID, because I was also a student with you prior to COVID and then during lockdown and all of that. you were. You were my first online class. I have a very vivid, vivid memory of we ended winter, winter quarter ended, and I remember being like, I don't know. And then lo and behold, a week later, everything's fully shut down. We're all in our homes in New Mexico. And I remember being on Zoom and you setting up the camera and looking back and just seeing all the faces and. it's just etched into my brain. And I don't know, like at some point, think talking about belonging within that whole realm is interesting as well. materials, yes. let's see. Well, you know, I, I love options. I really, I guess I vacillate between like the directives that I, that I facilitate are either you have so many options or this is what you're to use. and Generally, I err on the side of lots of options because I think that it's interesting for folks to play with what they want to play with. sometimes students will choose what they know and what feels comfortable. And sometimes on purpose, they'll choose things that make them uncomfortable, materials that they don't want to use. Still at Southwestern College, there is a box on top of one of the filing cabinets that has all kinds of found objects from my home. Broken toys, wires and things, you know, because I would just collect, collect all kinds of things that you can glue together to create sculptures. And that's definitely a favorite, a favorite material and different processes that we would do with found objects, like creating a character. It could be related to anything, right? It could be a self -critic. It could be a superhero. It could be a specific archetype that they're exploring. But creating a character from all of these random bits would always elicit strange and interesting pieces that usually students are like, wow, I would never have imagined that this would come out of me. And it's really powerful. I'm going to take it to therapy. So that's something that I have really enjoyed and cherished because of how dynamic it can be, you know, and figuring out how to put together broken bits of things to make something that's whole, you know, and how to balance it and how to wrap it or use glue. And the metaphor and the process of that movement, I really, you know, That's another piece that I do love weaving into the work that I do with students and with clients is to track the process of creating. What are the steps that you took? What are the choices that you've made? And what's the metaphor in there? And I was introduced to that by Josie Abbenante many years ago at a workshop. And it just rings so true that our decision making process in the creative process reflects something about us that can be so enlightening and really interesting. Whether we smash stuff together or work very small and slowly or anywhere in between or outside, there's just so much, there's so many choices that we can make that speak to who we are. And I love to... invite students to attend to that, know, to offer another opportunity to deepen. And then, you know, murals outside. love to, I've Love to really be a part of the process of short -term mural making where it starts with a blank wall and five hours later there's a full piece that four or five people created together and they didn't know exactly what they were going to do two days prior. Like that's, that's like the third two, right? Like just this.-hmm. of something on a wall where folks have to navigate differing opinions or wants, know, sometimes it's really hard to let go of control around what things are going to look like and make room for other people's thoughts and ideas, or sometimes it's hard to step forward and take up space. And other times it works, the synchronicity of the group is superb, you know, just kind of really depends on what that group soul needs, you know. And other than that, also, I really, I love large pieces of paper that, like just, you know, that whole roll, you just roll it down the floor and everybody gets on that and we're working on something. I don't know, you know, It doesn't really matter, but everybody's on the paper moving around. Maybe they have one spot they stay on the whole time. Maybe they're moving from spot to spot in this really long paper. And, Just that large expression can be so satisfying for the whole group. And then the last thing that I'll say is facilitating the zine process in the ethics class for multiple years. Supporting students in identifying something that they feel strongly about, that they're willing to or want to speak publicly about. So the zine process. We decide on an issue or an experience that folks will put into a zine in whatever way they want. It could be images, just images. There could be words. can be Some students would put tools in it, like how to regulate your nervous system. Some folks, you know, would talk like it'd be existential exploration or a personal story about, you know, family members' struggle in mental illness, right? So just a wide array. And after they create the zine, they decide where they're going to share it. So students would turn it create a digital copy and do an email blast or put it on social media. They would put it on the floor of a bathroom in a gas station. students, I've had students put them in like soda and beer holders. Yeah, exactly. Or leave it on park benches or bring it to doctor's offices or whatever. then sometimes, they wouldn't receive feedback because of where they put it. And sometimes they would. And then they'd reflect on this whole process. What is it like to create something about what they believe and share it with strangers? And what is role of public advocacy as a therapist is really the point of that project. So yeah, just so many ways to play and to learn. You Mm hmm. I mean, it's, it's easy to see why community work, social justice work and these lenses being so integral for your work. There's an expansiveness, whether it's like a large amount of offerings as materials or whether, you know, mural making, historically, very community based, zine making, historically, pretty punk, community based, large just swaths of paper where community comes together to create something. like hearing you talk about the zines, it brought back really good memories and then like I just feel the the bubbly -ness in my solar plexus of... I don't know, it's reminding me that I need to, as I'm building out my practice, the importance of carving out some time. And I've been thinking about it, but it just feels more verified now to be engaging in that kind of work and how important it is. And there's this really cool radical joy to it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we're coming up towards the end of our time. But so I guess to close out, Magdalena, I'm curious to know what's next. You will be completing your PhD program, I imagine fairly soon. Or whenever you do. You're still an educator. I'm curious about what academia looks like for you in the future. I can't imagine that you entirely have an idea. still teaching at Kint. But what do you envision? What sounds good? thanks for that question. Well, usually when folks are like what asks a similar question, I'm like traveling the world, you know, it's usually my response. want to I want to yeah, I want to be. I want to be invited to different places around the world to collaborate creatively, to facilitate workshops, to create art installations with other people. I want to learn more from others with more of global perspective. Going to the European Graduate School is such a... Such a great choice. Granted, not everybody is represented. having a international experience as a student was just so important to my inner expansion. And I'd like more of that. I've been hired by multiple organizations. in New Mexico where I'm located as well as throughout the country to facilitate workshops around somatic awareness, around cultural humility, belonging, heartache, the ethics around all of these things. So I imagine that will happen more. I do love facilitating. I facilitate online and in person. in person, I do like better. And sometimes it's a little harder to make happen. So I imagine more of that. And I also imagine that these next four to six years are really important in my children's lives. I have a teenager and a preteen, and so I need to be conscientious of how I'm moving in time and in place so that I am available for them first. I think prioritizing my profession has been big for me and there's some loss in that when it comes to family. So I'm figuring out how do I balance these things? How do I be a world traveler or a national traveler as well and still be here to support my kids through all the things? So yeah. Mm So that's what I'm thinking. Mm -hmm. Yeah, it sounds really good. More gray area. more gray area. Thanks so much, Sam. Yeah, thank you. Again, super, super honored and grateful to be here and grateful I got to ask you all these questions that I've been listening to you ask all these other educators. Yeah, I feel seen and just loving being in a mutual respectful, respecting, loving relationship with you as another awesome human in this world. Yeah. Okay, I'll stop it now. Whew.