Michele Rattigan: Normalizing a Pause

Michele Rattigan, DHSc, (pronouns: she/her) is a registered, board-certified art therapist and nationally certified, licensed professional counselor with specializations in trauma, post-partum depression and anxiety, disordered eating and body image concerns, self-harming behaviors and dissociative disorders. Her teaching philosophy is informed by Universal Design for Learning and focuses on the dynamic teacher-student relationship and presence as pedagogy to support student growth that is trauma-informed, compassionate, socially mindful and grounded in cultural humility. The intersections of daily arts practices, creativity, well-being, mindfulness, self- and community compassion, interdisciplinary collaboration and equity in mental health care influence her work as a clinician, artist, writer researcher, volunteer, national presenter, keynote speaker and 25 years as an educator.

Rattigan is currently the creative arts therapies clinical coordinator at Stephen and Sandra Sheller 11th Street Family Health Services where she supervises and co-facilitates art therapy with Drexel practicum and internship art therapy and counseling students. 

Interview was recorded on 2/2/24

Transcript

0:01

So today I am welcoming Michelle Rattigan, who is a board certified art therapist teaching at Drexel University in Philadelphia. And you have been teaching in the art therapy and counseling field for over 20 years, is that right? That's correct. This year is actually my 25th year. Thank you. Thanks for that work. And yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, thanks for making the time to be on the show. I really appreciate it. Well, I'd love to start with hearing your thoughts about boundaries. How do they fit into your work as an educator? Where did they show up? You know, it's interesting because when I think about boundaries, it doesn't always make me think about education. The first thing I think about are boundaries and containment when it comes to safety and working with clients. But boundaries and education, I think sometimes when we are therapists and we're clinical educators, we sometimes have this interesting Venn diagram of what is a therapist, what is a teacher, and what is the overlap between the two. And we get confused with what the boundaries are in terms of when do I have on my teacher hat, when do I have on my therapist hat. So not so much boundaries in terms of what's an appropriate relationship to have with a student. those things are usually pretty easy to determine, like what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. But I think what gets called into question for us that I find my colleagues and I talking about a lot is when we care a lot about our students and we see them struggling, or we see them potentially having an issue with something and perhaps need extra resources. or perhaps they are showing signs of neurodivergence and have never been identified. When do you step in and when are you the therapist and when are you the teacher? And when is it okay to be in that crossover Venn diagram? And when do you not do that? That's the part that's sticky with the boundaries. And I have to say that just like ethics is not a hard and fast line, it's extremely blurry and gray. And so I am so thankful for my colleagues because we get in some really, really deep conversations about this. And it's usually not the teacher who is having a moment with a student directly. It's those that are around us that have more objectivity that aren't close to the situation, which can look at it from different perspectives and provide support for that educator and say, I think there's more going on here where you're being more of a therapist and not as much of a teacher. So that's really where that comes in for me with the thought about boundaries. Mm -hmm. Yes, so the different roles and how sometimes they overlap, collide, or are really clearly separate. It sounds like you work with a really supportive, in a supportive community, making these conversations consistent and fluid. I have to say that I am very fortunate. Not everybody has an opportunity to have a team of educators. Some art therapists may be the only person, right, in their higher education institution. I actually have an opportunity to work with two full -time resident faculty that are art therapy professionals, and I've known them for decades. We've done a lot of scholarship together in and out of education and we can be very authentic and real and raw with one another and call these things out with one another in like a very peer supervision mentorship, collegial way. And I think that that's really very important. So we're always learning. We're always learning. Mm -hmm. The other thing I think about too is when people think about boundaries, they have a sense of the ivory tower. And man, I do not like that ivory tower. Let's just pull it out brick by brick. And I think that education is changing a little bit in that regard, or at least some of it is changing in that regard, that we are not high above, power over, looking down. It's more of how are we learning and doing this together with our students, journeying with them, powering with them. And it's important for me to be, this is gonna sound silly, a real human being in the room while teaching. And so for me, I don't take this stance of being perfect, of never having made mistakes. and being really comfortable sharing when I failed forward and when I have done really dumb things or when I've made mistakes. And I think that that is really important. Those are really important learning experiences for students. So thinking about boundaries in that way too. How we are with students, are you more of a therapist or more of a teacher? What's the overlap with that? And then also how are you just in the classroom with your students. What is your presence as pedagogy, right? How are you present with them and how are you being with them in that moment? think it's just so important. Yeah, absolutely. I hear that, you know, being authentically you and human is a really important part of how you show up as a facilitator or as an educator. I'm curious, what are some of the other components of your teaching frame? The way you see yourself as a teacher facilitator and also how you move in the spaces or online. So I'm very interested in critical, compassionate pedagogy, also universal design for learning. I really feel that we all have different strengths. when you, you know, I learned this term from Lillian Nave, who has a Think UDL podcast. She's really wonderful. And she says, you know, when you lift the water, all boats rise, right? So how can we in thinking about a universal design for learning framework, how can we present learning and design it in a way where we're meeting the strengths of all of our students, right? So for instance, if we are gonna be working on an assignment and the assignment is assessing a skill that someone is learning, does it have to be a paper? Like is the point of it proving that they know how to write something or is it assessing a skill and are there multiple ways of engagement and are there multiple means of expression that can be used? And I think as art therapists, we're already there. We get that. So why do we hold back and not always also do that in the classroom? And so universal design for learning is a really important part of my framework. Also bringing in intentional cultural hooks are really important. think sometimes when people, in higher education in graduate learning, there's this fear of, my gosh, how did I get here? I'm not smart enough. I'm not good enough. There's a perfectionism issue with a lot of graduate students. And it's important to lean into what students already know and their lived wisdom. their personhood, their intersectionality, and really framing the classroom around, what are you bringing in? What do you already have? What has your walk in life been? Because my walk in life is not your walk in life, and you're bringing in things that I can learn from you. So yes, I've done this for a long time. I might have read more articles than you have, but that doesn't mean that you don't have something interesting to bring. and we can learn from one another in the classroom. So the intentional cultural hooks, the universal design for learning, and then the critical compassionate pedagogy, which is really paying attention to the self, filling our own wells, so then we can have compassion for the community to be able to continue to serve others. If we don't help ourselves pay attention to that, how are we gonna have the energy? you know, to be helpers for other people. Hmm, yes, it sounds like a really beautiful weaving of what you bring together. I, know, when you're talking about acknowledging, highlighting, speaking to the group wisdom, right, of the students that are coming into the space, I would imagine that that is an important component of facilitating belonging in the space. Belonging is so important, right? Because once people are there, it's like, okay, I was invited in. But being invited in doesn't make it mean that you feel like you belong. And I think it's important to really acknowledge that, especially for students who are already marginalized by different systems and societies. And I think that it's important that we really find ways to hold ourselves accountable. be mindful of the systems, you know, systems of education, systems of care are still systems of oppression in many ways and could cause a lot of harm in their policies and procedures that we may or may not be aware of, but the students feel it. And I have to use my power and privilege, you know, as a white cis woman with power in the classroom that I might not be able to change something. right away, but I have more power to go to a faculty meeting or a faculty senate meeting and say, there's an issue here. Does anyone else experience this too? We need to say something about this and not be afraid to do that. Mm -hmm. Yes, I would love to hear about some of the strategies that you use to encourage and create a sense of belonging in your classroom. Well, you know, it's interesting because in the classroom I will present what I need to present, but then I also take a step back. I also get quiet. I don't, I can't talk the whole time. Actually, I want to reframe that. I can talk a lot. I can talk the whole time. I used to have a professor that said, if you hear yourself talking, you are talking too much. And that's me. I can talk forever. And I will say, you know what? I'm talking too much. We're each time out, we're gonna take a break. And so we'll do a lot of small group things. We'll do lots of breakouts. We'll do a lot of artwork. So the sense of belonging is really me taking myself out of the picture, believe it or not. And hearing from the students and what they're coming up with. And really giving the students a sense of agency. This is their class. This is not my class. This is your class. Also, I know not everybody reads the syllabus. I will put little Easter eggs in there. My friend Denise Wolf also does the same thing. And I stole this from her. Sorry, Denise. but putting little Easter eggs in there, know, someone will say something and it's like, you found it. I have to get you a coffee now. changing the language in the syllabus, I think is important. Not you will do this, but we can do this together. Or if the syllabus says, as the instructor, I have the right to make changes. That's what we're supposed to say in the syllabus. Guess what? I changed it. It says, as a community of learners, we may decide to make changes to the syllabus together. These things are really important because if we are also growing scholars, critical thinkers who are going to be working in teams and in community, they're not working in a vacuum. So we have to learn to work together. They have to learn to work with people who are at their level, who are above them and below them in different hierarchies, right? So I think that it starts with the words that we use, the language, our presence in the classroom. And then yes, there are times when we have to be standing up front and center and hello, woohoo, I'm over here. And then knowing, when we have to decenter and step back and then have the class take over. I think that's really important. And those aren't specific how -to recipe book, but those are just like general frames that I think that anyone can really apply to create senses of belonging. mean, I love hearing the intentionality around how much space you take up as a facilitator and that impacts the experience of belonging in the group. Yeah. I may know some things, but I'm also not here to tell you what the answer is. Like, my answer is not the right answer. Yeah, yeah, the multiple, it's okay. The multiplicity of truths, you know, yeah. I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about your journey as an educator and, you know, what you teach, what some of your favorite classes are, what you love about it. You know, when I first started, this is why I've been doing this for 25 years. When I first started, I was only two years out of graduate school. That's why I look so young. So young. And I could not believe that I was asked to come back as an adjunct. They were, it was my alma mater, they were in need. And I got a phone call. I was doing a lot of work at the time with group therapy and my co -therapist and I were doing some performance improvement work where I was working and we were collecting data. So, you we were doing a lot of research specifically with group therapy, with music therapy and art therapy at the time. So my former professor knew about it and reached out to me and said, you know, we really need an adjunct for group dynamics. We think you would be great. And I said, let me get back to you. And I went right to supervision and said, I'm too young. I don't know anything. I just graduated. And my supervisor said, you know what? I think this would be a really great opportunity for you. think you should at least just try it for one semester. Then I never left. And I've been teaching the group dynamics course for 25 years now. Thankfully, it's not the same course that it was 25 years ago. It's changed a lot. Yes, and I've changed a lot in 25 years, but it really gave me an opportunity to see how much I loved teaching and how much that teaching could influence clinical work and clinical work could influence teaching. So always kept those things alive in my life. Further down the line joins Drexel as resident faculty as well and was doing thesis, culminating projects, creativity, symbolism and metaphor where we explore the expressive therapies continuum. We also have a counseling, a core counseling curriculum and I'm also a licensed counselor. So we teach mental health skills lab, is preparing students for their first clinical education practicum, which is attending and listening skills. I'm also teaching a mindfulness elective course, which is not happening right now because we have a lot of things going on and don't really have room for it in the curriculum, but I hope it can come back. teaching an undergraduate course that's interprofessional with nurses and other health professionals and actually any student who would like to take it, which is mindful self-compassion for healthcare practitioners, which is a beautiful class, love teaching that. And we also do a lot with individual advisement in individual comprehensive portfolios where it's formative and summative assessments where students will take captures of their classes from each quarter, because we're on a quarter system, and put together a digital portfolio. So at the end of their tenure from their graduate school, they'll have this beautiful digital profile from where they started to where they ended. And it tracks their key learning points throughout their whole time. that they can kind of take with them and actually use as a part of a portfolio for job interviews or even as a place to kind of get started with more scholarship and research if they want to move on to say a doctorate program. So really wonderful things. And I love doing all of it. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can see it as you're talking about it. Yeah. Lots of supervision too, individual and group supervision. I'm also fortunate because Drexel is affiliated with a neighborhood community partnership. We actually have a couple of them. The one that I'm at is called 11th Street Family Health Services. And it is a trauma -informed sanctuary model, anti -racist, anti -oppression. neighborhood community where community members come in and there's creative arts therapies, there's physical therapy, pharmacy, primary health care, behavioral health care, dental care, and for the creative arts therapies and for the physical therapy, it's free of charge. And the anyone in the community can come in and get services. And so I am currently supervising two students who are with me for the academic year. and we're facilitating community groups. And then we go out to area schools and facilitate social emotional groups with some kiddos as well. So we get to do a lot of really neat stuff and Philadelphia is such a great, diverse, arts enriched place to be location and with beautiful people. So we get to do a lot of really great stuff there. It sounds really inspiring. It sounds like you, you know, they're in your work with students. There's like, there's facilitating curriculum, there's facilitating belonging, and some of the mentorship is walking alongside. Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And so like I came from 11th Street today before meeting with you and being with the students literally all day long. The only time we're not together is when we're eating lunch for half an hour. And when we're together, it's talk about boundaries, right? There's nowhere to hide. They're me when they're first starting out in their first quarter, watching me and what I'm doing, and they're asking questions and supervision. And as we move forward, I start taking a step back, they co -facilitate, and then they start to take over. They're choosing which groups they're gonna be facilitating where I become their helper, and then I take more of a step back where they start to. facilitate on their own while I observe them. And so we're kind of in that transitioning space, you know, right now. But it's really wonderful to see them grow over the course of the three quarters. I bet. mean, I imagine there's like a deep intimacy that is developed over time when you're working that closely with students. Yes, it's a different relationship and I have to be really mindful of that because I'm also teaching those students in classes as well as the rest of their cohort. So I can tell that, you know, the two students I have right now at 11th Street, I haven't taught them in a course yet, but I'll be teaching them in spring. And so I'll be with them and the rest of their cohort. Well, those two students and I, already have a pretty deep relationship and we know each other very well from working with all of the persons in the community that we have already. And so now I'm going to be reintroducing myself to the cohort with these two students that I already have a supervisory relationship with, right, and co -facilitation relationship with. And so I have to be really careful. not to do the favorite child thing, right? And so I guess if we can go back to talking about the boundaries again, is just to really make sure how am I maintaining that group balance and how am I still maintaining inclusion and belonging to all the students in that class and not just the two that I already have a relationship with. Yeah, it really takes intentionality. Mm hmm. I'd love to hear about your thoughts related to your responsibilities as an educator in these fields. what, how does that impact your work? And where does it show up? Yes, you know, it starts where we're actually right now in an application cycle. And as most people probably are at this point, and I would say it starts right there. And it's the hardest because you know that people are applying to programs because they feel so passionate about this work. People do not apply to graduate school because they feel like spending gobs of money, right? They don't wanna take out loans. I can't imagine anyone who wants to take out loans. It's expensive. They wanna do this work because they feel a calling, they feel a passion, and they believe in the power of art being transformational. So right there, that's hard. When you know you can only take a certain amount of people, and you have a lot of applicants to look at. And then you know you only have a certain amount of people you can invite to interview. And even from there, only a certain amount of people you can say yes to. So even from there, you're already doing some gatekeeping. And you're making some decisions pretty early on. And some of those decisions are really, really challenging because you don't have a lot of time to get to know people, you know? And then there's the consideration of thinking about readiness and fit because a lot of people are going to be wonderful therapists, but is now the right time. Maybe in a year or two, it be a great time. Or maybe they'll be an amazing therapist, but maybe Drexel's program will not help them. So I also have to be really mindful that if we are going to be interviewing someone, they have to interview us as well, or we have to be very upfront and say, I don't know if this place is going to support what you're looking for because this is who we are and this is what I'm hearing. And I think X, Y, and Z might be actually better educational institutions for you. That's also really important, know, fit, because I don't think that every program is right for every applicant. So then once you're able to get beyond that and you're working with the cohort that you've selected and you really, really get to know students and their strengths and their weaknesses and... You know, who's working through something in a fast -paced way, who needs a little bit more time. life happens. And that can be really hard. It can be really hard when you need to make suggestions about leave of absences, you know, to help students recognize that pressing pause on something is not failure. That it could be really helpful to press pause on something that right now is not going to be helpful to move forward. would might be more harmful to them to continue to move on. And that's so hard for students to hear when they really have a goal in mind and they want to finish, right? That's very difficult. And it's also really difficult when things change to the point where it's actually not healthy for someone to stay in the program. Whether that's the person and or healthy for them to do the work because we also have to be mindful of what would the impact be on future persons receiving care. Right, we have an ethical responsibility for future recipients of the care. And that's, that is not something that happens a lot. That's really like rarely happens. but I think that it's difficult to have those conversations. I would say again, I feel really fortunate to have a supportive chair and I also feel really great to have wonderful colleagues because I can't imagine ever doing this alone. Hmm. And in my heart, I hope that there aren't educators out there that have to do this alone. My gosh, I hope there isn't. Yeah, it sounds like you're really highlighting the community effort that is needed for successful experience. Yeah. And I think normalizing, taking a pause, normalizing the track, not going the way that you thought it was going to go is such a wonderful learning edge and experience. I mean, that's life. And I often will tell students who are facing this that I would rather this happen now while you're a student rather than when you're not a student because when you're not a student, you may not have the level of resources and support as you do now. So while you're a student, you have all of these people who are supporting you and want to see you be well, get well, do well. So why not take advantage of that now? and let's work together to come up with a plan. And a plan that here's what we recommend, here are different options, where do you feel comfortable with this? And let's work together on that, right? And it's not just me either because it's your program, excuse me, your program director, it's your department chair, it's your... academic advisor. It's all the people who care about that person. Right. So in what you've just shared, I'm hearing that one of the biggest responsibilities is gatekeeping to a certain extent, where that could mean a pause, that could mean a pause in entering a program, a pause in the program. It could also mean ending the time at a program, which I heard you say is really rare. And I imagine, you know, that part of the need for a pause may be related to challenges that that individual is experiencing internally or interpersonally. And I can't help but think about heartache and heartbreak within that, you know, context, you know, whether it's loss or, you know, big life changes. Mm And I'm curious what you think about that. I'm curious how heartache and heartbreak shows up in your work as an educator. You know, it's funny that you said that because I was just thinking if I could look at the video how many times I went like this because it is here, you know. I can feel my brow. I had a child client who I worked with and then they came back later and they went, wow, those lines got really deep. Thanks for noticing. Because, I do the whole, you know, the shaking head with the, But yeah, like I do, I feel it like right here. And again, it's that Venn diagram. We care so much. It's the therapist part. It's the teacher part. And the two worlds collide. And for the students who need to take the pause, it is. heartache and heartbreak. I've seen people need to take pauses because of needing to care for someone in the family or because of loss or because of a personal transition and personal loss or something that just needed more tending to, that wasn't resolved, right? That they thought needed, that was already resolved, but it kind of came back again, right? And also, heartache and heartbreak could also be I thought this was what I wanted and it turned out I actually don't love doing this. My passion's actually over there. And again, it's, well, thank goodness we're figuring this out now and not after you've graduated, because let's look at what you've done that we can now transfer into that other program. And I think that's also really significant. You know, there's nothing wrong with changing your mind. There's nothing wrong with pivoting. Pivoting could be a really beautiful necessary thing and sometimes doing the wrong path first was the only right way to get you there. True. And it can be the heartbreak, right? I mean, I'm looking at the piece of art behind you and I'm just thinking about, first of all, I love the colors, I love the lines. And I'm thinking about a time that when I was in art school, a dear friend of mine, we were getting ready for a show and we were painting the walls white. and she wasn't there one day, but she had a piece of art leaning against the wall and I'm very clumsy. I guess it's good that I'm an art therapist and not a dance movement therapist. And I tripped over some of the white paint and the pan flipped up and it splashed white paint on her art piece. Yeah, this was before cell phones. So I couldn't do anything but wait until the next day when she came to school. And I waited for her in the hallway. And before we walked up to the studios, I said, hey, I just need to tell you what happened yesterday. And I told her. when she walked in this, she didn't say anything. She walked in the studio and she looked at it and she said, I can work with that. And I said, excuse me? And she's like, I really was having a hard time with that painting, but I think you gave me some ideas. I was floored. I was floored. And that was to me like a really important life lesson. One, I was thrilled that she wasn't mad at me and still wanted to be my friend. And two, she took this horrible mistake as an opportunity to transform her piece and turn it into something that she felt worked better. And I love telling that story and I love telling that story to students, especially when they're in that spot of, I thought this was the right thing and they keep pushing it like, pushing the same agenda like, no, this is the way it's gonna be and I'm gonna hang it up. And it doesn't have to be that way. You can throw some paint on it or have someone like me trip on some paint and splash it for you and then realize it's supposed to become something else, that you're supposed to become something else. That makes life worth living, right? my gosh, yeah, just the importance of change and I mean, allowing it, right? Allowing things to shift or dissolve or become something else. That is, I feel like that's part of the magic of life as long as we allow it. But that can also be terrifying because then the unknown's there, right? Yeah. yeah, not getting too attached to what you thought your idea was, you know, that's the mindfulness part, just the noticing and allowing without judgment, without good or bad, just having that open and active curiosity of, okay. All right, I'll see what happens now. And she taught me that. That sounds like it. Yeah. I mean, I think too, you know, that place of... learning about yourself in a potentially conflictual experience, right? I don't know what your mind did around, you know, after that happened. But I could imagine into some of the worries that could show up after making a mistake like that. I beat myself up. It was so anxiety written. I was just obsessed over it. Really forecasted and played out in my mind. Okay, this is gonna happen, and this is gonna happen, and then what am I gonna do, and how much money should I have to pay for it? I just really, just, it was really bad. Really bad. then that's not what happened, right? What a great lesson. like, actually, we don't know what's going to happen. So worrying about it or creating a conflict inside of ourselves that we project into the future actually isn't helpful. It doesn't feel good. No, I create it way too much heartache for myself. Yeah. Mm sharing that story. feels important. I imagine with the work that you have done and focused on with mindfulness and mindfulness stress reduction and intentionality around how we are in the present moment, I'm getting a picture of your group dynamics class. And when conflict shows up, I'm imagining the, okay, now what? Like you just said. Yes. And I will be the first to admit to students that I dislike conflict so much. And, you know, that makes it usually safe for them to say, me too. And so, you know, we'll talk about how conflict is so necessary, you know, for change in a group, how it's usually if you're working with a consistent group, how that is usually the turning point, right, for more trust to be built in a group. Yeah, I have to give a shout out to Megan Robb. I love her group art therapy book that she published recently and the students love reading it too. And, you know, we talk about, you know, conflict and how do you work with that in a group and how does it show up? How can you use art for that, right? And so we do a lot with You can't mix oil and water, so we'll do a lot with resist techniques and really start pulling in media and materials as well. It's like, okay, we're not just doing it with words, we're also doing it with materials. So how does that show up for us as art therapists? Because we're not just processing it with words. And we can't just also do it in the art because then that's avoidance, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. There has to be like a physical interpersonal engagement with it. Yeah. You know, I'm wondering about the relationship between heartbreak and conflict, whether it's in the classroom or in your experience as an educator, you know. amongst some of the challenges of working in higher education. Ugh, did you just see that? I just went... I think for me the heartbreak is in higher education. There's so much love in the classroom. Yes, there are moments where it's not always love because someone's always gonna say the wrong thing. There's going to be rupture and you have to work on repair. Microaggressions are gonna happen. There have to be coming together moments and accountability and You know, we have affinity groups, students have affinity groups. You know, I facilitate a professional staff and faculty white racial affinity group so we can hold ourselves accountable. And so we have those in place and work on the rupture and repair. But generally speaking, outside of, it's like these concentric circles, right? So outside of our classroom is, you know, the program and then outside of the program is the department and the department has to deal with the pressures of the college and then the college has to deal with the pressures of the university. And I don't really know of anyone right now who is not hearing things like budget crisis, academic cliff, right? Everybody's worried that more and more people are not enrolling in undergraduate, that there's less people of age who are, you know, graduating high school and choosing to go to college, there's less numbers in the population. And so, you know, colleges have become businesses rather than institutions of public good for education. And when these higher education systems are run more like businesses with boards of trustees that are business partners and not educators. Then you have this business mindset and model where everything comes down to dollars and cents and not a sense of learner centered or faculty centered or professional staff centered. So it's like yes we believe in the teachers, we believe in you, we want you to do good research, we want you to be great teachers and there's no money. Right? But we know you love what you're doing, so keep doing it. Right? So I think that's kind of everywhere right now, or at least that's what I read when I look at, you know, Chronicles of Higher Education and Higher Ed Online and all these other things. And I think that that's kind of hard. It's kind of, I don't know when the shift will happen, but I think because there is such a fear. of this academic cliff instead of an academic lift that people are worried that colleges are gonna lose money so everybody's pinching pennies. And when you pinch pennies, you unfortunately make the people who are working there feel like they're not valued, right? Like Pizza Party Fridays is not making someone feel valued, but a raise will. word yeah yeah absolutely Paying for someone to go to a conference would make someone feel valued, not taking away conference fees. Like, hey, we want you to maintain your credentials and your CEUs and your licenses because you need those things to teach here. We're not going to help. we took away most of your ability to pay for conference. And there is a privilege, there's a privilege that if you're not working in certain places, you don't get those benefits either. So there is that recognition, right? I'm not complaining being a Debbie Downer, sorry, Debbie's, but it's just something to consider, right? And that's in a lot of systems. Like how can we have a business mindset when it's necessary to have a business mindset, but not forget that this is also education, right? And this is why I'm not a dean and this is why I'm not a president of university because I don't know what the answer is. But I wish that I could be a part of those conversations with compassion to help people figure that out or at least to bring that side to the conversation because I don't know if those things are coming up in the conversation. I don't know if they're being missed. Yeah. Like who is making sure the student's voice is heard? I don't know if it is. Maybe, yeah, maybe it is and I'm really naive, right? Because I don't get to be a part of those conversations. But in my heart, that's the heartbreak. Like I want to make sure that all voices are heard. Yeah. so important. I mean, it brings in the Venn diagram again, right? So like the business of the university and then what the university is offering, right? The education. And where is that, that beautiful middle space? You know, it is, it's, it's true. Part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Did you know that that space is called a mandorla? It's one of my... I'm gonna, I'm writing it down. because the Venn diagram was also called a Vesica Pisces. I'm telling you. to, I need to write, these are gonna be my new Scrabble words. Well, worth looking up to, FYI. one of my favorite shapes is the mandorla. It's that space in between. It's the overlap space. You know, it's a space the two circles make. Okay, okay. if you ever saw my art, it's in everything I do, has a mandorla in it, and I never knew that's what it was called. Mine too. Okay. Okay. It's interesting. for just as a quick aside for this, my arts -based research for my dissertation, the first part that I did was I chose 19 different concepts to explore in mixed media processes. And in almost all of them, the mandorla is a part of it. It's just this, patterned symbol. in my expression. Yeah. I love that now I can tell people, that's just my mandorla. Yes, I love it. Yeah. And you know, PS, what the mandorla is, it's the universe's vulva. I know, that's what I usually tell people. But now I can call it a mandorla. Both and, yeah. It's both have, I think people won't look at me funny now when I call it a mandorla though. I appreciate that. Okay, regulating. I'm wondering if we could pivot to art supplies. I'm curious about what art supplies you love playing with, what directives you love facilitating in your classes. Yeah, share some of that with us. Can I tell you my favorite thing of all times? So before the fall break for, well, we call it lots of things. I don't know if I should still call it Thanksgiving or not, but I just call it fall break. But it's that time of year. In the group dynamics class. I ask students to bring in a recipe that is meaningful to them. It could be based on their personhood, their culture, just something that reminds them of people that are important to them that we can exchange and share. And when they bring in the recipes, we use anything we can find in the studio. We have like sewing machines, digital materials. printing, clay, we have everything in the studio. The only thing we don't have is a kiln. It's only thing we don't have. Even though I asked for one, they said no, so we don't have a kiln. And I tell people that we're going to make the recipe out of art materials and we have to make enough so we can feed each other. So everyone makes the food. and we put it all together on the table and we take a picture of it. And then we serve each other and we like put them on plates and we sit around and we talk and we just sit there with like the food on our plates. And it's like my favorite thing. And the students love it too. There's just something about, again, that feeling of like belonging, like there's something for everyone. And just that that sharing like I made this for you and also just like watching how they serve each other. Like so precious. I remember one student who was an avid sewer made pie and somehow was able to make a stuffed fabric pie on the sewing machine in like 45 minutes and made a piece of pie for everyone in the class. and like made a utensil out of things found in the studio and like painstakingly, very gently just scooped a piece of pie on everyone's plate. I know someone else made little sushi rolls and literally found chopsticks in the studio and used chopsticks to serve the sushi roll one by one. Just, it was just very precious and just so, I don't even know the word for it. I guess I feel it, you know? I just feel that. Other things that we do, I don't always tell people what to use unless we are exploring assessments and how they suck. Right. I heard it. You did. I heard it. Sorry. Did I say that? Did I say that out loud? Yeah. How they're not really culturally appropriate. Yeah. No, but we do them to see how they're problematic. But so for the assessments, we'll do them the way they're supposed to be. you know, administered with the correct supplies and everything. And then we go, okay, what are the pros and cons? And we figure it out and we take it all with a grain of salt. But for other things, it's usually more exploring and theme -based where they can use whatever they want. Sometimes I will say, okay, let's use this because it's not so much about the theme, but it's more about the material is the metaphor. Like for instance, we talked earlier about conflict resolution of using oil pastels and watercolors to do the resist where oil and water don't mix. Except for the Crayola portfolio series because they made them water soluble. I know. So yeah, I love using them by the way. Their viscosity is really wonderful, but you don't want to use that for an oil resist because it doesn't resist, right? But typically it's asking people to explore what they feel comfortable with. I will also ask them to talk about how they would use that material with a specific client population or community. Sometimes I will ask them to maybe explore something they're not used to using to try something new because I also think that it's important for people to not go to the same thing all the time. We'll also talk a lot about what it's like working with artists as clients and how do you navigate that because I don't know, I just might do Mandaloras all day, given the chance, given my favorite mediums, but if someone is asking me to do something I'm not familiar with and my non -dominant hand, something else may come out and I can't rely on that secondary process, right? right. So then it's gonna, I'm not gonna be repeating the same thing over and over again. I'm going to, excuse me, be bringing something forward that we could talk about in a therapy session. Mm -hmm. Right. Right. That challenge is important. Absolutely. So just don't ask me to do sculpture. FYI. I'm not good. It's not my thing. I'm like collage painting, drawing. I love building, but 2D. Yeah. Yeah. So in your own therapy, sculpture would be the way to go. Yeah. sculpture. Yep. Yep. Just putting it out there. Anyone who winds up being my art therapist, sculpture, 100%. Yep. Mm -hmm. I got it. I guess we are coming to the end of the hour and I'm wondering about how you talk about consent with students, how that shows up in the curriculum, how it shows up in choice. I'm wondering if we can end with thoughts about consent. Can you explain to me a little bit more about your thoughts about consent in terms of working with clients? you mean? No, in terms of working with students. interesting. Consent in making art in the presence of another. Could be, sure. I mean, it could be related to the choice of doing a specific directive that might be evocative. It could be related to curriculum and the assignment. Ooh, that's really deep. You know what's really... Yeah, well, it's really interesting because... I don't I'm just trying to think back like I don't think I've ever had anyone come forward with not having or having a concern about what we were going to do, like feeling like they couldn't do it. Okay. But I also never approached the topic of consent. Now, one thing we have done is going back to the syllabus of making changes. Is there have been experiences where students have shared things happening all at the same time with other classes and feeling overwhelmed and their bandwidth just being fried. And so, maybe it's easier to talk to me or maybe I'm a pushover or maybe both, but they have come to me and have shared what they're feeling. And I'll say, well, let's look at the syllabus together and let's see what we can do in this class. And maybe we'll change some dates around and work together on that Mm -hmm. it more feasible. Because sometimes, especially with adjuncts who don't have the privilege of knowing everything that's going on in the department, and rightfully so, they shouldn't have to know everything 24 -7 because they have other jobs that they're doing. I'm okay changing dates around. I would rather the adjuncts do what they need to do, right? That's important because I have the flexibility. The only other thing I can think is if I've had a student who would like to do an alternative version of an assignment, not in terms of the content, but it's deliverable. You know, a student who, I remember one student was saying that they were really, really having a hard time putting their ideas on paper. And we were meeting individually. And while we were talking about their ideas, I said, know, the way you're describing this in words right now to me sounds like why not put it in a video? You know, did you want to do, did you want to upload, you know, a video? And they were like, yeah, I could do that. And so for me, was, it's more about the deliverable and timing more so than actually changing the content. Mm -hmm. But in terms of consent, I've actually never thought about that. And I'm wondering if I need to start to because it just never crossed my mind, except for the fact of keeping it open and making sure students are aware that this is their class and I'm there to facilitate and that if we need to make changes, we'll do that together as a community of learners. So I guess in that respect, that would be the closest thing to consent that I have for the classroom. Yeah, and that feels like a really important frame for the classroom. You know, with this question, I think about directives like body tracing or mask making or genograms or, you know, some of the processes that Those are provocative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. as facilitators of arts -based experiences, when do we allow our students to say, no, this is school? Right, okay, well. Well, yeah. part of it is, part of, there are people who do it because I don't happen to teach some of those classes when they happen in, but I hear where you're going with that. And I would have to say, there's two thoughts because I think one, I might answer it differently in the moment and also knowing the student. right, having a rapport with the student. One part of me says, this is a really interesting learning experience because this is an authentic assessment. This is something that could happen in your group when you're with clients. And so if you are working, let's not make it personal because again, therapist, teacher, right? So let's imagine Let's connect this back to clinical experiences. Let's imagine that we're in a group and someone in the group says, I don't feel comfortable doing that. What can we offer as an alternative? Let's problem solve it. What is a different way that we could do this? That's probably how I would handle that in the moment. And I don't think it's important to single that student out and to fix it in the classroom. I don't even want to say that word. I'm going to retract that. It's not fixing. It's not fixing because that person doesn't need fixing. That issue doesn't need fixing. That person didn't feel comfortable. We don't know why, right? But I would want to follow up with them after class. Just check in with them and make sure that they're okay because they're are really hard things that we have to do and really hard things that we have to investigate in ourselves to be therapist ready. So that's the other part of it, right? So that doesn't mean you have to do a body tracing. What it means is I wanna make sure that whatever that was that made it uncomfortable, unsafe, whatever the words are that you would want to call that. that you have the support and the resources that you need to explore it. Mm -hmm. And if you don't, would you feel comfortable asking for help? And could I be a resource to help you make that connection? Because as your teacher, again, trying to keep these two things separate and not be the therapist, because as your teacher, I will tell you, you will get triggered in the field, right? You will come across people who remind you of things. You will care a lot about the people that you work with. It's really hard to not have feelings about past experiences in doing this work because we are the tools, right? We are the tools of the trade in addition to the art materials that we work with. So again, in the classroom, it is not a therapy room. In the classroom, it is okay. Let's figure out, let's problem solve it. Let's pretend that this is happening in real time in a group. That's okay. Someone doesn't wanna do it. We don't force them to do it. That's not what we do. How do we offer an alternative? And then after the class, just follow up, make sure the person's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I had to think about that. That's a tough one. thank you. It is a tough one. I feel like we could probably talk about it for longer because I think that there are so many nuances in it and we're going to pause for now. Yeah, and I might like, you know, go off of the recording with you and think like, ooh, I have a better idea. But I feel, I think that's how I would realistically handle that in the moment for sure. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Both application and choice. Figuring out how to adapt in the moment. And then keeping therapist self, teacher self separate, still caring, but not trying to be both at the same time or losing the boundaries of what my role is. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Michele. I've really enjoyed our conversation and all the different places that we went with it. Yes, it was amazing. Thank you for asking me to do this with you today. Yeah, absolutely.