Boundaries & Belonging: An Arts-Based Approach
Expressive Art Therapies. Facilitation. Higher Education.
Highlighting conversations with experienced facilitators, speaking to the complexity of this arts-based work. Supporting the development of the next generation of a spectrum of therapists trained in therapeutic arts.
As educators, how do we hold space, encourage, inspire, interrupt, redirect, guide, and accompany using creative interventions, all the while meeting the competencies that we inherit, and our employer’s expectations.
Boundaries & Belonging: An Arts-Based Approach
Dr. Elizabeth Markman: Expressive Arts at Heart
Dr. Elizabeth Markman is a licensed clinical professional counselor (LCPC), board-certified art therapist (ATR-BC), and Art Therapy Credentialed Supervisor (ATCS) who obtained her Ph.D. in Art Therapy from Adler University. She uses a wide variety of expressive art forms in her practice as well as talk therapy.
Elizabeth works with a diverse range of clients in both group and individual sessions and offers a safe, non-judgmental environment that supports her clients as they move toward healing & personal growth. Elizabeth has a passion for incorporating the arts into psychotherapy that is rooted in her own experiences as an artist and utilizes an intermodal approach to creative arts therapies that can be defined as pointing to an integrated application of the arts. Elizabeth believes that part of the therapeutic process is to “rouse the creative life-force energy”. Thus, creativity and therapy overlap. What is creative is frequently therapeutic. What is therapeutic is frequently a creative process.
Elizabeth’s background includes a demonstrated history of working in the residential and supportive housing non-profit industry. She is skilled in crisis intervention, clinical supervision, treatment planning, psychological assessment, conflict resolution, and interventions. Populations she has worked with include children struggling in social and/or classroom situations, sexually aggressive youth, youth questioning their gender and/or sexuality, adults living with life-changing diagnoses, formerly homeless and marginalized populations, and the severely persistently mentally ill.
Interview recorded on 2/9/24.
Hello, I am happy to introduce Dr. Elizabeth Markman, who is a licensed clinical professional counselor and a board certified art therapist. And you are the interim director of the Master of Art Therapy at the St. Mary of Woods College. Is that right? Yeah, welcome. Thanks so much for making time. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I would love to start with your thoughts about about boundaries and belonging. How do boundaries show up in your work as an educator? How do you facilitate belonging in your classrooms or in the community of faculty that you support? I'm curious. Sure, yeah, I guess I'll start with boundaries. That's what came up first. I think it can be tricky because we're training individuals to be art therapists and counselors. And so we want to be able to take them into deeper places and spaces while they're in the program. And of course, using art to facilitate that and do that in a safe way, but at the same time, Sometimes that opens, just opens a floodgate of disclosure sharing and people start to, cohorts start to bond. And so we have to also make sure that there are parameters in place there for their own mental health or wellbeing and make sure that. that belonging and boundary intersectionality is there, but maintaining that space as an educator, because we're not therapists. That's kind of the first thing that. I was told or shared coming into higher education or education in general is just to remember that my role as an educator is very different. So maintaining boundaries and belonging looks different than it would as an active art therapist working with clients. So in the classrooms, we're an online program. We're all virtual. And so it really does start with, I think, that. new student orientation and then we have residencies that are part of our program because of that online piece and so doing what we can to just create that cohesiveness as quickly as it is possible. We don't force anything but of course as an art therapist I believe in doing that through art so we include a lot of art making right away in all of our classes and in the introduction into the program. I think in individual classes, we're looking at new curriculum. New texts we can include, a little more diversity, more updated text than what just has historically been seen since I graduated, which was a decade or so ago. So just kind of giving everything a little bit of a facelift, I guess, to help with that belonging piece. Because we are getting more diversity student body. And there's a lot of different ways, I think, to include art and perspectives and cultures into the educational space. So it's just about doing it. Yeah, yeah, it's such an important part of holding the curriculum to expand what perspectives are represented since we know that the, you know, the art therapy field really started out with tunnel vision, you know, and that, that That is something that I'm glad to hear that you're attending to as the interim director. It really is such an important facet of belonging and, you know, truth telling, right? Yes. Right. Yeah. In my background, I come from, I'm based in Chicago. So I do interim direct and teach remotely. But I come from Adler University. They're very rooted in social justice and social interest, from that Adlerian perspective. And so it is. It's nice to be in a position to bring that into a new space that I feel needs a little bit more of that. We have students from very rural areas all around the country and world where they haven't, well, they would say they haven't encountered some of these things that are going on in the world, like racial injustices and oppression and just, and then like, Maybe not to a magnitude that you're seeing, but I'm sure that you have experienced some of these things. So that's part of the belonging is finding ways to take the situation and help relate to that as best as we can so that students don't feel like they don't understand or that they're supposed to know something that maybe they just don't. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, that experience of facilitating a class with a big majority of, you know, white identified students coming from homogenous homogenous neighborhoods, communities where theoretically the blinders of white privilege has really made it challenging to see outside of one's experience, right? See outside of one's privilege. And gosh, the responsibility of being in relationship, creating a safe enough space, facilitating belonging, and also challenging worldviews that are limited. Yeah. Right. And I think going back to the classroom is that we, you know, of course we have part of our curriculum, a social cultural course, but it just happens to only be offered in our summer semester, which is eight weeks versus 16. So even then we need, we're not giving enough time and attention to a course that's already there that could be expanded upon to be more inclusive now of some of these things. So moving things around like that. mm-hmm. Yeah, I appreciate you starting off with that focus. That's a real passion of mine, expanding curriculum in a way that is, like I said, more about truth telling and more about like, really, just the clarity of what diversity is. um you know some of some curriculum developers and um directors of arts-based therapeutic programs talk about the importance of sociocultural um curriculum being part of every single class right so that this eight-week course is totally important and right and I you know what I appreciate about what you're starting off with is It sounds like how you're using your power in this position. I'm trying, I'm trying. I am hyper aware of it. I'm sure there even beyond my hyper awareness, there's things I'm gonna become more and more aware of. And that's gonna be a never ending thing for someone who, I do have all these privileges, right? Like the privileges being able to move through the world without having to think or be concerned about various things, right? So there's a lot to what privilege can mean, but I don't know. as a whole, most students understand like what privilege is beyond a certain scope. And so it is about highlighting that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. and doing it through the art, right? So I'm, I, it's important, I think, to share I'm very rooted in expressive arts therapy. So I use a lot of different modalities. I don't just stick with traditional visual art. I'm not, I'm not a music therapist, dance. I don't, I don't use those things beyond what my scope is, but I kind of move in and out of each modality as maybe the session or individual needs. And so I think that's important because storytelling, there's a lot of different ways stories are shared. There's a lot of different arts and expressions involved in that. And so to just limit, this is just me, but to limit our program to just creative arts and traditional visual arts for me, it feels like we're shutting off some voices and stories. Hmm. Not every culture out there identifies with the same medium. And so bringing more of that into the art space too, I'm just highlighting different actual different materials, and the ways they're used. hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, that multimodal approach that I imagine brings more of the body in, you know, intentionally. Mm hmm. Yeah. I'd love to hear about what you love about teaching and how you got into higher ed, what this journey has been like for you. Um, the journey is still new. I feel like the toe is like one toe, maybe all toes are in, but like I'm so new on this journey. So I originally, I never thought I'd have a PhD. It's just kind of wasn't my jam doing the whole research. My brain just wasn't gonna let me go there until Adler started one in specifically an art therapy. And I learned about different art based research approaches that just aligned with how my brain worked and saw the world. And so I originally, I thought, oh, this could be good. Letters are good. I wanna start implementing more community-based art therapy programs. And I think having this degree and having these credentials will get me into the spaces and rooms with the people I need to. And so that's how it started. And just as I was about to shape up and submit my research proposal, which was gonna be community-based COVID happened. And everything was shut down. Yeah, yeah, so. different challenges to create and be in community. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. There was a big, I believe in redefining and kind of repurposing relationships and what community can look like when you need to, so we did the best we can, but there was a huge loss there. There was a grief and loss period. I had been with my groups for about three years. as they were ongoing groups, South Side of Chicago in residential settings. And so we, talking about boundaries and belonging, it looks very different in those communities and those settings, right? The boundaries that we established there, the therapeutic ones might not fly in, like, a psychiatric hospital, so to speak. So. We spent a lot of time and a lot of, like I said, just space with those belongings and those boundaries and letting those develop. And then COVID happened in the program. I don't think it's been up and running since then. Mm-hmm. So you really had to pivot. Mm-hmm. I did. I really had to pivot and then I focused on, I was supervising interns at the time through the organization and pivoted to just observations I was making of interns I had worked with, which was... kind of, you know, kind of freaking out in a moment if with the client, if their session wasn't going the way they planned, let's say. And for me, there was no mention of the art where I'm like. Hmm. Are you doing art? Do you bring that in? Is the art helping with those moments where you as a clinician are feeling stuck, right? So there wasn't a lot focused on that clinical piece. And for me as an art therapist, not enough on the art. And so, yeah, I pivoted to focus on art-based supervision and fostering trust in yourself and your intuition. Great. And then what led you to Saint Mary of the Woods? Yeah, so I graduated, I got the PhD July of 2022 and started as an adjunct at St. Mary's. They just happened to need someone to teach their group art therapy course. And so since I had been doing that, and that was just my specialty, I had been doing that with my groups for a long time, it was easy to kind of slip in and... teach that it's more experiential which is I feel I hesitate sometimes to call myself a teacher because I'm best at the experiential let's put these things into play let's practice these things let's go deep with these things and get into the actual directives or art making versus the dissemination of information. Mm-hmm. We have some wonderful instructors who do that and their lectures are beautiful, but it's kind of not where I have. That's where I'm very green. I haven't had those experiences, right? I was supposed to do a teaching internship in my PhD program, but COVID happened. And so we were all just learning how to do virtual things. So it was more about that transition, again, than what I feel would be considered teaching. Mm-hmm. And so that's kind of how it just kind of all started with that adjunct group class and never just took off from there. And here we are. Now I'm interim director. Trying that. Yeah. such a big deal. It is. It is. And I'm happy that you've shared that. Thank you. Because I try to share with the people around me who love me and support me and it I love them. But they're like, Well, yeah, but of course you can do this kind of thing. Right? Like, well, yeah, you can do this. I'm like, Okay. But can I share what like my insides are like right now while I'm doing? Yeah, yeah, that sounds like an art project right there. And like, right, it's like spaghetti noodles. I need to work with some spaghetti and figure that out. Sometimes. But like I said, I mean, it is nice to be in a position where I can implement more of what your questions are touching on, to be honest. My teaching style, if I had one is... Bell Hooks, Paulo Freire, like we're all here to learn. I say that a lot. I try to be transparent, professional, but transparent with, hey, I'm interviewing you for a program, but I'm an interim. And this is how long I have been here and what my plans are, so that they just know that we're in transition right now. Yeah, a lot of responsibility. I mean, I, you know, I believe it's a lot of responsibility to be an educator. There's so many, so many different threads to hold and to weave together and to dance with. And then, you know, to be director of a program and a teacher at the same time. It's, it's that it's that much more of a layer in terms of responsibility. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering if you could speak to that what What are your responsibilities as an educator and as an interim director? And how are you holding it? How is that spaghetti moving inside of you? Well, sometimes this spaghetti wins, I guess. Sometimes I have to pause and my body will let me know that and it's taken a long, long time to... allow my body to speak before like up here, my brain, right? So that I can be like, okay, it's, you know, the spaghetti's moving around, or maybe it's starting to knot up a little, I need to just step away. We can really just step away, right? So I've done a lot of community work, which I think... helps me as an educator that just that real world practical experience of taking what you learn in a classroom and how to apply it outside that space. Cause it's very different. There's a lot to know about counseling and art therapy, credentialing and all of that too. Out that there's stuff, there's more. There's so much more. And so bringing that into the space and just again, kind of being leveling, being real, sharing what it really takes to start a private practice. It's not what you're being shown elsewhere, I'm sure. So stuff like that. I think that's my responsibility as an educator, is to continue to share what it looks like out in the moving world. And also sharing that you're gonna be fine and you're gonna mess up. It's gonna happen. You're gonna be okay. You might be fired at some point. Like, who knows? But just, I think being direct. being transparent about the field itself is really important as a director and an educator, being transparent about what it looks like in our program, how many years it takes, just being real and honest. Just so, at least for me as a director, so I know what I'm sharing with people in case students somehow, you know. Our minds take over and things get confused. And so I just need to know for myself, I've actually been as honest as I can be about our program and what we offer. So there's some intersectionality there with that. The teaching and directing, there's so much admin and directing, and honestly, that's a scary part for me. Just all of that management experience. Mm-hmm. and managing other people. I've never done that. It's very different. It's not, not interns and not students. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which I imagine like, you know, some of what I'm hearing and what you're sharing is about the importance of humility in terms of, you know. being honest that mistakes have happened and will happen, whether as educators or directors or as future art therapists, that mistakes are a part of the process, and doing something new, right? So doing something that you haven't done before, and the learning curve is steep. And I'm just, I'm wondering how do you... How do you think about humility for yourself? How do you engage or see humility in your student body? What does that look like, sound like, feel like? Um... Well, right now for me, it's just saying, sorry, apologizing or learning. So moving from like community work into this space, I've had to let go of a lot of crisis response, if that makes sense, because there's a lot of that involved in community mental health. I worked on a crisis helpline for a long time. So I had to learn that it's okay to say, hey, I'll follow up on that. Let me get back to you. So humility in the sense that it's okay to pause and let this person and it communicates somehow that I don't know and that I don't have to figure it out right away before I respond. I can you know it's okay that I don't know and I need to go if I figure that out. Um and then sorry just saying sorry saying sorry to whoever I need to like I have no problem saying that. Just being like, yep, sorry, I let that ball drop. Or again, yes, you're right, let me follow up on that. I was supposed to do. Whatever it might be, just take accountability. I think the nature of St. Mary's itself, the college, and what it's been rooted in, it's been around for a very long time. The Sisters of Providence who are still there. St. Mary's is different from other colleges in their rooted in service versus, I'm not sure what the proper word would be, but they want to see how you're giving back to community versus how many publications you have. Got it. Mm-hmm. Which is great for me, because like I said, I'm hands on. Like let me get in there, let me help, let me bring art to space, whatever is needed, versus just, yeah, doing a lot of writing and publications, which is needed, it's just not how I would contribute. So that's, that idea of humility is rooted in the school, it's in the program, I think it's rooted in. me and we have one other full-time faculty who so when you meet us it just you feel that right away so that's carried through the program. And then I, you know, I'm hoping it happens in our classrooms. I think humility can show up for different people in different ways, and it might not always be recognized as such. Right. Um, I'm learning because I'm still, I still consider myself. not too far off from being a student. It wasn't that long ago. And so I also bring that. So I remember what it was like as a student so that can help me at times. But that humility piece of, I'm so quick to advocate for our students. I have to remember there's another story and that's maybe a faculty or someone if there's any kind of conflict or just if sharing of space has been a challenge, I need to make sure I'm not just. being humble and advocate for students. There's faculty now, I have adjuncts, right? I have a program specialist, that there's, that's that management team piece. It's a whole program to advocate for and make sure everyone feels they have space. Yeah. I mean, it's like a much larger group and much larger group dynamic with different like levels and layers that you are navigating and facilitating it sounds like. Yeah. yeah. For sure. And then beyond that, right, the larger, I mean, the larger educational system of the college and the politics that are involved in that. I don't think I'm saying that's negative, but like, yeah, you learn the hierarchies, you learn who is, you go to for what and just how, again, like I'm still learning assistant professor versus. Just professor, right? So those things are new for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. and learning. Just how that works. I think that's an important part of belonging for me. How I approach it is I try to come into new spaces and just observe. Just what's going on and talk to people. And then what does belonging mean to like, I can't tell a student what belonging looks like. I need to hear or see from them. what that might mean so I know how to approach it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your relationship with art supplies. What do you like to play with? What kind of directives do you love to facilitate? Sure, yeah, yeah. So, I love, I think I love all materials. There's more, I can speak more to what I can't work with, which is glitter. I love it in the moment, but this may mean something or not, but the fact that it follows me, it follows you after, I'm like, why, just let go. Hahaha Let go glitter. But I have a background in theater. So I have a background in scenic design and graphic design and furniture design stuff. So I love bringing whatever is needed to tap into it, needs to be tapped into. And so with that, I'm very process-based. I consider myself an archetypal art therapist, so I'm rooted in archetypes, storytelling, emergent art, versus pre-planned directives. I like art-based assessments. I surely do use them, and there is a space for directives. But even with that, I think I'm probably a little more forgiving of, here's what I'd like us to focus on or here. draw a bird's nest, but like they can do that however they want to do it. Um, and so yeah, I love play. I love the idea of play. I think play is really important to feeding the soul and keeping the soul happy. Totally. I'm wondering, in your experience of facilitating inside of class and receiving assignments or facilitating assignments with students, I'm wondering how student consent plays in. Some of the assignments and the in-class experientials that are facilitated are evocative. and challenging in some ways, right? Whether it's like exploring one's experience of their body or relationships and family or, you know, whatever it is. And I'm curious, like, how do you consider student consent when it comes to evocative experientials or assignments? Oh, I'm assuming this is outside of what they sign when they enter the program. This is like consenting to in that moment in that space. Yeah, yeah, in that moment, in that space, in, you know, collaboration or accommodation. Mm-hmm. I think. That's, we challenge students. We want students to challenge themselves, whatever that might mean, whatever provocative might mean for them, right? But I try to, I also don't want them to go to a space that feels unsafe. And I'm not always gonna know what that means. So there is some aspect of having to trust the students that they can engage or not. They're never forced, and I'm hoping, I can only speak for myself, that there's no... Like... punishment, so to speak, attached to that. But there, I guess it starts with an understanding that consent's gonna be up to them and whatever comes from the art. We have to understand and honor and respect that. but that you also honor and respect your own self, your own boundaries, your own consent. And if there's something happening in that space through the art making, through the story sharing, through discussions, that you step away how you need to, or that you connect with someone, if there's a particular instructor that you feel connected to, connect, let, you know, do that. But... This is tricky for me because of how I think about consent. So it's a really good question because I'm, you know, there's that sort of formal clinical way to think of consent and then what's in the classroom. I've had students feel unsafe, just straight up feel unsafe with what's been, what was going on and they've had to leave. Okay. You leave, you can leave the space. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. But I also, I mean, like I said, I start off my classrooms with you are more than welcome to leave. You don't have to say anything. Please step away. Please step back in if you feel that you can. And with virtual too, there's a weird layer there where... I think people can. For me, being virtual, there's some distance already there. There's a level of disconnect someone can have and maybe still be in the space, I guess. I'm not sure if I'm even addressing what your thoughts were with what consent is in a classroom. Oh, yeah, I mean, you are. Like, yeah, if a student doesn't want to read something, okay? But if you're open to talking about it, is there room for discussion? That's a balance, having a safe space for everyone, and it doesn't happen all the time. And that was a hard one for me. I've been told that... I was making someone feel unsafe in a classroom setting, and I've never been told that in my life, ever, as a clinician, therapist, anything. So it was new for me. And it's okay, well, what can I do to honor consent on an individual basis and a larger collective basis? Mm-hmm, totally. You know, I, go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say that. I think that there is this spectrum as an educator in therapeutic arts around consent on one end and gatekeeping on the other. And part of the responsibility of clinician educators and directors of programs to suss out who... is doing what needs to be done to be able to continue in a program and graduate and serve the public basically. And then there's, so it's like there's this place of consent, like how do we support our students in knowing their limits, in saying no, period, because no is a complete sentence, and then also still participating, right? How do we help support our students to do that? And what I'm hearing you say is you have had experience where students weren't feeling held in the way that they needed to, or whatever was being done or explored in the class, they were brought to a place that was so uncomfortable, that maybe they weren't able to regulate it. Obviously, I don't know the detail, but. Sure. And so, you know, it just brings me back to responsibility, right? Like, what's our responsibility in all of this? How do we attend to, you know, the interpersonal responsibility and then the curricular responsibility and then the public good responsibility? It's a lot of different layers. I'm wondering, you know, as I'm kind of rambling on about these pieces, I wonder what comes up for you. Yeah, yeah, there are layers. And so as, right, as a, even just as a therapist and even more so now as an educator and director, I feel I have to think further out than... where other people are just because of my experience and my knowledge in education. Students aren't gonna think as far out as I can just because of my experience and know how of lots of different systems and real world art therapy, right? So it is a matter of, okay, I didn't create a, one repair work, it's reaching out to the student. Is there a way to repair? Would you like to meet? It's up to you. I would like to repair this if we can. and talk about that and have a discussion about what it a little bit about what it is my role to do and not just maintain safety for one person. I have to think of the collective class but how can we include you? But then thinking of okay if there is if there was some hypersensitivity just also noting that about the student it's just going to be a note. I'm going to have that in my head so that when it comes time to their clinical work, practicum or internship. That's something I'm aware of so that just to see if it plays out in the classrooms in other ways and then how that might play out when you're working with clients. Right? You can't just yell out if you're feeling unsafe with the, you know, there are things you might be doing in the classroom because you're feeling unsafe and you are dysregulated. I will do what I can as your educator, but I think that might be something you need to work on too in case that happens in a counseling setting, right? So I have to think about those layers you talked about. Mm-hmm. And that's how it works for me. If it's in the classroom, how will the ripple effect be outward? Is this happening already in a clinical situation? Is it soon enough in the program where there's gonna be growth and change and it's just something I should just be aware of? Like, it's a lot. I'm like, did I breathe? Yeah, it's a lot. Ha ha. I mean, and that's I think that that's so important that you did that in that moment, because, you know, I believe part of our responsibility is to attend to ourself as the educators, right, is to like, OK, and I do have a body and I am going to breathe, you know, or I am going to do what helps me center so that I can see you again. You know, and which is such important modeling. Yeah. because it is a lot to hold and it's a lot to navigate and not everybody who is in the picture can see all the pieces that are navigated by the educator in that moment or by the director of the program. There's just, there's a lot of strings, a lot of needs. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder how would you, how would you articulate the challenges of higher education or being an educator in higher ed? What are, what's okay to say publicly that is challenging? I mean, look, there are systemic issues in every, every institution and system we have in this world. They're, they're, they're not all the same. And they're not all the same magnitude. But yeah, higher education, it's a new system for me. And learning, like I said, you know, how do I You know, I still feel, I still say, oh, hi, doctor, blah, because I'm doctor, blah, I should be on a first name basis. And I'm like, that doesn't feel good. So just the social stuff too that plays into just what the hierarchies are, the way that higher education works in that way. So I'm learning that. And then, Yeah, I mean, art therapy itself. I still think there's a lot of, I don't know what the word would be. I think a lot of people are aware. I think our college is aware of how wonderful art therapy is. We have a music therapy program too, but it's, yeah, maybe not supported in the way that we need to be. That's not to say they're not supporting us, but our therapy is unique. We have different needs and we're a virtual program. And so, reassessing, and I'm new, so I'm new coming into this space. And sometimes that's what happens, right? New eyes come in and you see different things. And so, I would say it's been a challenge for me to know how to navigate. Like I said, who do I go to with some of these things I'm seeing, what's appropriate, what's not. I have four different meetings that I try to manage, so I'm saying the right thing in the right meeting. So, like those things of being new, I think to this higher education. I think in the classroom, the toughest for me sometimes is having students trust you. Mm-hmm. We say it a lot and they hear it a lot about trusting the process, but it starts with them trusting you then as the instructor because you're the ones we're taking them through this process. And students don't always see it as not trusting and so that might not be the right language, but yeah especially as a research advisor or thesis advisor and trying to stay within those boundaries and parameters. Sometimes there's a lot of resistance there. And that's new for me. But having, learning not to, again, maybe resistance is better than not trusting. But that's a challenge. It's like, please just listen to me. Just this one time. We're all on our own path, but for this thing, I think I'm... And on point here. So those kind of moments too of like, and you're there adults, it's a master's level program. Right. Yeah. Yeah, so I was just going to say all the interpersonal dynamics of being a facilitator can be challenging for so many reasons. Yeah, yeah, that was one of the first things I had to address when I was teaching, when I came on as an adjunct in my group class. There was a student who was frustrated and didn't feel other students were doing enough in their discussion posts, giving her enough to respond to whatever it might be. And just... Again, that belonging and boundary piece is, I have to meet every student where they're at. You're not all on equal foot. One, you're not even all in the same cohort. We have third semester students and fifth semester, like so you're not even all in the same learning curve here because of experience and classes. But that was kind of like, oh, I'm going to have to manage also, yeah, where people are at in their developmental learning, but also making sure everyone's held to the same expectations. But how do you do that too? And make sure someone's getting the education they want and the engagement they want, but also like they might not be in that space with you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. it's, for me, it was easier at that time to conceptualize that in a more therapeutic way. Understanding people are different places emotionally or things like the grief and loss experience is different, right? But then in the classroom, you want everyone to pass and do well and understand things. And we only have like four months for everyone to get that understanding. But yeah, it happens at different times. totally different paces. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you sharing just all the things that are managed, right? And navigated this dance between meeting people where they are, holding, you know, the curriculum and wanting everybody to pass. And then also not everybody does. And, you know, being, just being in relationship with the whole, the wholeness, you know. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, you brought up grief and loss. And I, you know, one of the things that I'm curious about is because therapeutic arts education or, you know, however you wanna say it, right, is we encourage students to explore so many depths, personal depths, interpersonal, collective depths. And of course, our nervous systems and our emotional processing becomes public, becomes a part of the group process or at the very least a part of, you know, maybe some of the reflection papers. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering how heartache and heartbreak shows up in the classrooms and the assignments. You know, yeah, I'm wondering how it shows up in you as an educator as well. What does that look like? In those shared spaces like the classroom space. Oh Well, I mean the art the art making first and foremost is where we always see it first and It usually won't matter what the course is or even what a directive is that there's heartache there It's gonna come out and Especially if it's a cohort that's cohesive and they're close And that, but that's that idea of boundaries too, right? Like, so you see the heartbreak and you, I think it's okay to allow that to maybe then ignite heartbreak in others, because that's usually what will happen. It's not, it doesn't stay isolated with where it's showing up. It tends to then kind of bloom in other, other people or other ways in the classroom. So letting it happen. I think for me, again, it's that, I guess for me, that dotted line of being a therapist and an educator, how much do I allow this to touch my own heartache if that's what's happening or, I mean, I've certainly have cried with a student before in a classroom, like. I think it's that modeling behavior too. Like I'm gonna share this experience. I'm having a bodily reaction because I'm crying, right? And we're gonna honor all of this and let it happen. So it shows up every, I mean, the artwork, storytelling, discussion posts. It has happened where students have started to worry about a friend. or a classmate, right? And then, you know, I step in and kind of try to absorb that heartache then. So it's not leaking out anymore into the rest of the student body, right? Because there's that, it's okay to have that. But again, that's where I feel. someone like a director, an instructor, advisor would need to, again, maybe redirect that heartache. For me, it's students. I mean, there's... It's students who just disappear. I just kind of drop off. And there's no resolve there for me. And I know that about myself, because I'm like that with clients. Like, ugh, it hurts. Yeah, well, you were, did I miss something? Was there something we didn't do for you? Right? Sometimes it's not us, right? The program and someone needs to step away, but I won't, you know. So yeah, it's unknown. Wanting people to be okay, we're virtual. I let students know or applicants when we're interviewing is I just ask for communication. If we don't hear from you, I'm gonna be invasive to a certain degree, but we're virtual and we just worry because there's no way to. Mm. really know what's going on like maybe in person. Mm-hmm, so different. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that sharing. I can hear and I can feel how heartache and break have touched you from your students and just also as somebody who cares about these people that you are supporting and accompanying through, you know, this important journey in their life and in their career. So I can. I can hear it and feel it and resonate with it too. Yeah. I sure can. Like I said, I started my PhD program in person, and then abruptly it moved to online. And there were a lot of feelings for me of, and these are just feelings. I'm not saying that the university behaved this way, but I felt on my own. I felt isolated. I felt like I had to figure things out. And the whole world was, the whole world was. But knowing that was my experience in a... and when we move to the virtual format, I'm like again, I'm hyper aware, maybe even hyper sensitive to not wanting students to feel that way, making sure we have things in place so we're all engaging as a program, whether that be an open art making time or coming up just with different ways to engage virtually or even in the classroom. right, when they get to thesis and making sure like, no, I'm here, you don't have to do this on your own. Let's put some things in place so you don't feel you don't belong to the greater college. You belong to the woods, you are part of St. Mary's. So how do we make you feel part of the school? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It feels like a really important, like, active intention that you engage in. I think it can be jarring for some students. Just the amount of autonomy there actually is with our program. And how then that means, though in turn, you have to manage your time. We're not all built like that. I'm not, I'm learning that in this role, because even in my own private practice, like I said, that's my practice. and I'm process-based. And if I have an extra 20 minutes and the client does and it feels productive, I'm gonna go over that boundary, right? That time boundary. Can't do that here. Not when I have to see six students in a day and read five thesis papers, whatever it might be. And I love it, I do, but it's that time management piece. And I think some students... aren't aware or not how they operate in the world. Yeah, really. Well, we're coming at the end of the hour, and I'm wondering if maybe we could close with you sharing a little bit about your goals, your goals in this program, your goals as an educator, things that you are looking forward to and want to do. Yeah. I think my goal as an educator is to just keep learning. Like I said, there's a lot for me to learn there in terms of my teaching, like teaching approach, how to hold space, how to get feedback, things like that. So I have ongoing goals to just develop as an instructor and professor. I have a lot in my head in terms of the program because I had a lot in terms of community programs that now I'm just redeveloping into curriculums. So I'd love to move the program more to include expressive modalities, other modalities, maybe include courses that would offer students to become registered expressive arts therapists. So just include more like certification opportunities. And yeah, new curriculum and kind of decolonize some of that and restructure those and to add more like neuroscience. We don't have that. Anything nature based more body somatic stuff too. Mm-hmm. Just, yeah, to include more of what we now know or have, I guess what we're proving through research and science is the impact of arts and expressive therapies. So that's kind of where I'm at. Big luck to you. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of it sounds like a holistic expansion. I think, yes, yeah, I think that's important. Again, I really do believe that art is all encompassing and there's not one way to interpret what that means. And if we believe truly too, in inclusion and diversity, then that means these different art modalities in the way that we see art in the world and how it impacts healing. So, yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate this conversation and what you brought to it and wishing you so much ease and creativity as you continue. you. Thank you. I will take it all. I will take it all. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely.