Dr. Erin Partridge: Arts-Based Relationality

Erin Partridge, PhD, ATR-BC (she/her) is an artist and board certified, registered art therapist. Erin received a BFA, studying fine art, psychology and women’s studies at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo in 2006. She went onto obtain a MA in art therapy from New York University in 2008, and a PhD in art therapy from Notre Dame de Namur in 2016.

Erin’s teaching and lecturing experience includes teaching at NDNU, Dominican University of California and Lewis & Clark College in the art therapy departments, guest lectures in art and counseling programs, mentoring undergraduate and graduate students, workshop facilitation at national and international conferences, and interviews with media about art therapy. Her clinical experience includes work in community, pediatric, forensic, and geriatric settings and she is published in the areas of art therapy, elder care, and technology. Her research interests incorporate the lived experience and focus on participatory, ethnographic, and art-based approaches. 

Her first book, Art therapy with older adults: Connected and empowered was published February 2019. Her second book, Getting on In The Creative Arts Therapies: A Hands-On Guide to Personal and Professional Development was published February 2021.

Erin is also a Certified Forest Therapy Guide and an ERYT.

This episode was recorded on 1/12/24.

Transcript

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I am happy to introduce Dr. Erin Partridge, who is a board certified art therapist, as well as a forest therapy guide and has been teaching since 2016. She's been an educator since 2016 and teaches at the Dominican University as well as Lewis and Clark College. Welcome. Thank you for being here. I'm so glad to do this. Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective. You know, I'd love to start by hearing your thoughts about boundaries and belonging. How do you think about boundaries when it comes to your work as an educator? And where does belonging fit in this work? Okay. one of the things that has been, I guess, the most important in my work as an art therapist, because it was that initial feeling of belonging when I discovered the field, right? That like click in of, oh my gosh, this is a thing that I could do. Wow, amazing, right? So that sense of belonging that happens first, when you first find out about the field. And then, those different layers of belonging that happen as you get your education and you move on and you start doing work. And then, you know, for me, like pursue the PhD in art therapy and then do the educating and like that belongingness both for myself as well as for the people that I work with, like that's been so, so important, right? And then when I think about boundaries, you know, it's kind of a, it's a tricky one. There's like the boundaries that are the healthy ones and then there are the boundaries that are the like, no, we're not going there. And at various times in my clinical work, those boundaries have been more or less rigid. And with students, it's also been kind of this evolution, right, of inviting them to bring more of themselves into the work. but not so much that the classroom becomes like their therapy session, right? And so being aware of that, but also making sure that I'm always reinforcing that, because so many of our students, they come into the field having had a lived experience of some kind and reinforcing for them that that lived experience is not a liability and that it's something that actually can make them a better clinician, a better therapist, more empathic human. if it's examined, but that it's not this like dumping everything on their peers in the classroom. So that's kind of some initial thoughts about that. Yeah, that feels so important. You know, this therapeutic education is so different than so many other types of education and that boundary, like figuring out where that boundary is around how much is shared and how much is held or brought to therapy, you know? How do you speak about that with your students? Yeah, for a little while I was teaching an undergrad introduction to art therapy and for them, especially because they were coming into this class, it was a two series class they could take. And some of them, it was maybe their first time having these experiences where they're doing a directive and stuff is coming up in a classroom and they've never experienced that before. So normalizing it and having resources for them at the undergraduate level was important. For the grad students, You know, it depends on the class. So I teach a class about working with people who've experienced domestic violence and acknowledging day one, usually minute one or two in that class that because of statistical probability that there are probably some people in the class that have been touched by that issue in some way. And acknowledging that that's a thing, making space for them to create their own work as we're working through class, really normalizing this self -care. this kind of quiet self care that can happen as we're learning together and making sure to touch back on that as we go through the class. I also teach about work with older adults. And so of course, grief and loss. Sometimes I've had students in the class who have just like that week lost a grandparent. And so having to talk about these things can be very, very tender. So acknowledging that the grief is there. I myself had to teach. and elder care class, like the week after my grandmother died. And so, you know, showing up authentically with, I'm a human with feelings, but not like absolutely losing it in front of the classroom. So just showing up with human emotion. Yeah. emotion and the skill to self -regulate. You know, mm -hmm. Yeah, such an important skill to model and to support in our students and learning how to, learning how to be, you know, yeah. Well, would you share with us your journey to becoming an educator and what you love? about teaching, the classes you teach. Yeah, you know, I when I came in, I've always been like I used to do art classes, teach art classes before I knew that art therapy was a thing. And then. When I was first, like after getting my master's first in the field working in a couple different settings, I didn't necessarily think, oh, someday I want to be an educator. And even when I entered the doctoral program, that wasn't necessarily the direction I was pointing, but in doing some early work in supporting some students with their theses while I was in my master's program or my doctoral program. And then, kind of having an opportunity to teach a first class, I was like, oh, I really like this, right? I really like doing this. I really like being part of this. And so it was kind of this gradual adding of opportunities to teach and kind of diversifying the types of classes I was teaching. And I've had the opportunity to originate a couple of classes in both programs where I teach. And that's been really exciting to kind of take something of particular thing that I'm interested in and then inviting students into that interest as well. So that's been a digital and new media class at Dominican that we started at Notre -Dominique and more and then brought over to Dominican and getting to kind of play in all these new media applications and see what students are bringing to the table. That's been just a great joy and it's cool because that class can't be static, right? It has to change. because you can't just like have a syllabus for that and then just roll it over into the next semester because new stuff happens, right? So that's been very fun and really rewarding to do. And then I've gotten to, I'm really interested in graphic medicine and the use of comics in art therapy, but just also the graphic medicine movement worldwide. And so I've gotten to teach a class at Lewis and Clark College based on those ideas. And, It's been so, so fun. Because I use a lot of comics in some of my other classes as a teaching tool. And so getting to do a whole class focused on that has just been so, so much fun. Again, it's like opening doors to other worlds that art therapists can step into and showing our students that they don't have to stay in this one lane, right? They can take the work that they're doing. and connect with all these other fields. And that's been so fun. And then the third class that I've gotten to originate is a puppets and dolls class. And oh my goodness, do we have fun. It is like the getting ready for that class was so joyful. And then having the class, we made the most glorious mess. I mean, just like the biggest messes. And it was so fun. And it was also really intense, right? Because it's this very tactile class. And so speaking about boundaries, right? Like stuff comes up, right? Sewing and touching soft things. There's this, there's like ease of stepping into memory and ease of stepping into nostalgia and sometimes loss. and also sometimes like uncomfortable feelings and all of that came up because it was such a like almost overwhelmingly sensory class. And yeah, it was just it was a it was a really wonderful experience and I'm looking forward to teaching it again later this spring. So more fun to come with that one. Yeah, I love to hear the classes that you originated. I mean, I can hear your joy and feel your joy around it. And the creativity that is just woven through is clear. yeah, because I get to show up not just as like here I am sitting at the front of the classroom, like teaching this lecturing this at you, but I'm just like, elbow deep in it with them, which is, yeah, I think that's another way that I that I show up is not in this ivory tower, Dr. Partridge perspective, but really showing up with them as a creative human and, and being present with them in that. Hmm, the importance of authenticity as the leader in the space. Yeah, I'm wondering if you could speak to your teaching frame and your agenda as a teacher. What's explicit, what's implicit? Yeah, you know, one of the things that's been, I think. a negotiation for me in my evolution as an educator has been the how I show up and bracketing my own educational experiences, meaning I've always been an extremely high achieving, very focused person. And I've had a lot of privilege to have support for me being that way in my life. And learning early on that I needed to make space for students that that's not been their experience and they maybe haven't had examples of like how to work on a long -term project. You know, I also teach, have taught the thesis classes and do teach the capstone classes at Lewis and Clark and you know, showing up for students for long term projects like that big thing. Some of them, it's the first time they've done something that big and really needing to be aware of what my expectations are for myself and making sure that I'm aware that like, yes, that's like, those are my expectations that I would have for myself if I was showing up in this project, but I can't impose those on my students. I need to help them rise to the occasion, but I can't. force them to behave in a way that like I would behave, you know, and early on that was hard. I would be like, oh my gosh, I would never ask a professor for something like that. You know, I would never ask for an extension. That's like so far beyond anyway, I would ever behave, you know, and just really, really having to have some grace around that. That's been a learning. But, you know, my... I think one of the ways that I really try to show up for my students is let them know that I'm here to talk through things and we need to have open communication and be in communication with me. That's the most important thing to me. And so that's like that. I'm here. I'm excited by your ideas and I want to partner with you in this. That's how I show up. Yeah. So it sounds like part of your teaching frame is really relational, that it's important to be in communication and to be flexible with the ways that all students show up because there's quite a diversity in everybody's way, right? Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. That feels really important. And I imagine that that actually is part of how you facilitate belonging. Because when we can be expansive enough to be inclusive, then folks can loosen, loosen into that the trust of the space and trust of the group. Absolutely. And we do, I'm heavily art based in my approach, meaning like even in thesis or capstone classes, we're making a lot of art together as we're processing what we're up to in these more formal writing settings. So we do a lot of arts based connecting with each other as well. And I always make art with them and I always share my art with them. And so it's this really, this arts based relationality, I guess, in how we connect with each other. And I've found that that really helps with, especially as an adjunct professor, so I'm not there every day with them. And especially for the students where some of the classes are in person, but some of them capstone, I teach online. And so some of the summer research classes I teach online. And so really like showing up for them and being as present as I possibly can through both my words and how I show up with them. outside of class, but also sharing art with them and sharing that making time with them. Yeah, again, authenticity, sharing yourself. Yeah. Would you tell us a little bit about what art materials or art directives that you love facilitating with students? I mean, so in my non art therapy work, I do some work with with ArtSnacks and I have since like 2013. And so I am a I am a massive lover of art materials and finding new things and sharing that. So a lot of times it's about like, oh, my gosh, have you seen this new watercolor that's out or this like really cool new tool that we can use and getting really excited about the media? because I really feel like that's an important part of how I set an example for students is that always learning, always developing with the different materials that I'm using for myself and for my clients and then in the teaching. So trying new things, showing up with this, I'm a hardcore mixed media artist, do a lot of book arts. And so it's bringing all of that in, like, let's combine all the materials together. Let's throw the rules out and just see what happens. if we mix these materials. And I haven't had anyone have a reaction to it. I could imagine that that. might come up. My mom's a trained medical illustrator, so sometimes she watches some of the stuff I do and she's like, really? You know, because she's used to like rapidograph pens and watercolor. And it's like, that's the materials, and they're very clean, and it's very exact. And can I do that? Yes. But is it more interesting to mix all these materials together, especially in a learning environment? You know, because stuff will come that maybe we didn't, we didn't know was there. Right. And I... experimenting. yeah. And then I try to be really generous with materials as well. So I do a lot of collecting of relevant collage material for the different classes that I teach so that I can show up with like, here's my envelope of all these interesting, weird, technologically connected images and words. And so when we're doing collage in that class, I have materials that are ready to go for them, right? And same in the comics class and same with domestic violence and with older adults and, you know, I had these materials that are kind of prepared for them. So it's kind of a caring for with the materials that I offer. Yeah, I hear in that like part of setting the space and holding the space is that preparation before. So the getting the art materials together, creating the curriculum even before that, right? Yeah, it's such a commitment. Yeah. Yeah. are like, you know, Erin, you have a full-time job and you have this other thing that you do, like, why are you teaching? And it's like, well, because I can't imagine not teaching, you know, I just can't imagine not doing it. So even if that shifts and changes over time as far as like how many units I carry, okay, but I can't imagine not teaching. Hmm. Yeah, and I imagine that your students can feel that. Yeah. You know, I'm curious about your thoughts related to consent with art directives, with, you know, different therapeutic educational assignments that we assign our students in, in these classes that... encourage them to deepen their self-reflection, deepen their understanding of whatever the concept is as related to themselves. And, you know, there are some places like where is the flexibility around the yes and the no with that? such a good question because I actually had an experience in my master's program that felt very much like the rest of our cohort had not consented to the way that someone was inviting us into a directive that the whole cohort had to do together. It was another cohort member who I think ended up not ending up in the field, thank goodness. Because it was extremely uncomfortable. It was extremely uncomfortable. It involved him kind of tying us all up with a rope and it was something metaphoric that he was inviting us into, but it did not feel okay. And we didn't have, at the time it felt like we couldn't say anything, but it's interesting to me that that was like 2007. And I can still remember to this day that feeling. And then, like a lot of sensory stuff about that experience. And it's, you know, I would never ever want anyone in any of my classes to have that experience, right? So one of the things that I love from, from forest therapy, and the way that the guide facilitates in forest therapy is that we really reinforce that everything is an invitation. And that is, how I try to pose these things that we do together in class or the assignments is that this is an invitation. And if what I'm putting forward or offering doesn't fit for you, then what would, right? Like I'm not married to this specific way of doing this assignment if there's a different way that's going to work better for you and the facilitation of what you need to do, right?-hmm. Mm -hmm. So it sounds like you offer students the opportunity to adapt assignments based on their needs and interests. Yeah. Yeah, that feels really important. you know, for some students, it's kind of uncomfortable, right? They want me to tell them exactly what to do. They want me to tell me, me to tell them how many pages it needs to be and how many references they need. And, and so sometimes I'm, I'm having to encourage them or, or almost kind of, and this is where it gets a little tricky because I am pushing them a little bit in this direction. direction intentionally, maybe guiding them a little bit more strongly towards like, I can't tell you how many pages it needs to be because it's going to be the number of pages it's going to be. Right. And for some people, that's expansive and wonderful. And for some, like they just want or need that concrete thing. So then it has to be this conversation of like, OK, here are the parameters that I can tell you. But I really want to encourage you to not worry about that, but worry about the experience of doing this thing. Yeah, I mean, the spectrum of needs in a classroom, right? And also each individual's experience of education over time really impacts that, impacts those needs. Yeah, yeah. I'd love to hear your thoughts about your responsibility. as an educator to your students, to the field, what comes up with that word. Yeah, responsibility to the field is a big, it's a big one. It's one I've talked about a lot with other educators. One in particular who's decided that she's no longer going to teach because of some of the experiences that she had with students, like just really pushing at her in a way that was just the, it's. I don't like to do generational labels, but it does seem to be this dynamic. And it was during the pandemic also, but there was kind of this intensity of... asking for things that seemed so far outside the scope of what was possible, right? And kind of pushing someone in and going around their back and doing a lot of behaviors that were just not functional. And so there's this, I don't want to be a gatekeeper, but I also am aware that sometimes our role as educators is to understand that this field might not be for us. everybody, right? And there might be some people that come into the work initially, and then there's something else that's there that would make them not a good fit, right? And the work that I do for the Art Therapy Credentials Board in the Standard Setting Committee is really having that awareness of what is a minimally competent art therapist. And so it's like this back and forth between what I do as an educator with getting them to that point. And then realizing that some people, that is not a place they're going to get to either because of unresolved work within themselves or something else that's maybe temperamental or about kind of how they approach the world that makes me not comfortable with recommending them forward, right? And that's come up more times than I would like to have it have come up because it's so uncomfortable every time. Yeah. of course it's never just me that's making that determination, but it's hard, it's difficult work, right? Yeah, pulls, I mean, I imagine it also pulls the heartstrings. Yeah. What is it in terms of your responsibility to the group or to your students? What do you think about that? My responsibility to the students is to create an environment that is supportive of their learning and their exploration and also their connection. I feel a deep responsibility to ensure that they feel connected to the field and feel empowered to. create community for themselves, right? That they are not, I think for a long time, there was this narrative of like, well, I had to struggle and forge my way into a place where art therapy wasn't, and I had to do that. And so you have to do that too. But instead, if we can help them build community while they're in school. and connect with other communities while they're in school, then they don't have to do that lonely art therapist thing that some of us have had to do, right? That like, here I am with my bag of art supplies and I'm the only person here and nobody knows what I do and really, really helping them build those skills and have those connections early. I don't. I don't think it is my role or my duty to have them do trial by fire stuff or suffer. Hmm. So it sounds like there's a lot of bridge work. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm wondering in the group work that you do, right, because each classroom is a group and there's always interesting group dynamics that show up. And as we are all exploring the depths of a topic personally and then how, what the application is, as you were talking about before, all kinds of things show up. whether it's through the material that is being touched and worked with or the content that is being explored. And it makes me wonder about heartache. How does heartache show up in the classroom or in the assignments? How do you navigate it, hold it? What's the word? help it move. Yeah, what does that look like for you? Yeah, I mean, think with the topics that I teach, a lot of times heartache does come up. It comes up with the clinical topics that I teach about. And it can also come up with these thesis and capstone experiences too, because while it's also, while it's a difficult project, it's also like a culmination, it's a triumph. And then there's also the, oh my gosh, we're done, right? Like with this culminating project and there is this grief that's there with that, right? Like, and a fear also. And so naming those things, bringing them in, in our conversations. And then, you know, one of the other things that's been, that kind of comes to mind when you bring that up is the... I'm not sure how to articulate it. Knowing that sometimes my role in facilitating this group of students is to let them have their smaller conversations, like in small groups in the room. And I am here, right? And the important thing for them right now is to have these smaller conversations. And there can be this like little... baby heartbreak for the educator of like, I can't hear every conversation that's happening. Like, look at them having these dynamic conversations and I'm not in it. But that's important, right? It's important that I'm not in it. It's important that they have this little triad that's having this very rich conversation and they can come report back to the class, but I don't get to, and I don't need to know everything that was shared. Mm hmm. So the letting go, it sounds like, is a part of it too. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I know that there's a balance, like you mentioned before, in terms of, like with students, the... the difference between sharing and experiencing heartache in the moment and flooding or shutting down. You know? Yeah. definitely had to teach at times when that's been like right here, right? Like I've had some experiences through my time of teaching that have made showing up as an educator difficult. And it's kind of like, okay, I just have to be here right now and I have to show up for them. But... it's like right here, right? And I'm like looking out over the surface of the water and I'm partially under, but I'm showing up for them. And, you know, making sure that when I'm doing that, like my feet are on the ground and I'm feeling it right here, but I'm showing up for you. And I can, you know, white -knuckle it through to the end of this class. And sometimes it's about acknowledging it, right? Sometimes it's about acknowledging it like, wow, wow, everyone, you know, I'm really holding something really difficult right now. And so if I cry or if I have to step away for a moment, this is what's going on for me. How do you find your class response to that when you are honest in that way and vulnerable in that way? Yeah. Like every time I've had to be very vulnerable with students, whether it's master students or the doctoral program, because I teach some classes in the doctoral program. And when I showed up really authentically, I met with kind of a collegial human showing up. Hmm. That's so important. And I love that you use the word collegial because that's really what this work is as educators and graduate and PhD programs, right? At least in therapeutic arts. We are accompanying students towards being our colleagues. Yeah. And it's not a very long time, right? It's only like, anywhere from two to four or five years, depending on the track that folks take. Yeah, and sometimes it's right away, right? I had a student who, her thesis work, I encouraged her to make a conference proposal. And so then not very many months after she graduated, we showed up as both presenters at the same conference. And so it was just this really lovely thing of her being in the classroom with me to then seeing her present on a big stage and then hearing from other people. their experience of witnessing this person who had been my student and who very easily stepped into that colleague position, which was, yeah, great joy. I love hearing that. And again, you know, it just really, I think that frame of reference really helps reduce the power dynamic inside of us as facilitators, educators, that knowing that, hey, soon you're going to be right at my side. So, you know, my expertise is actually not as important as our relationship. I had such a good example of that in my first year of my master's program was that I did my master's at NYU and I was in the last cohort that was taught by Edith Kramer. And she used to have these wild holiday parties at her beautiful studio in Tribeca. And she just like welcomed all of us in, you know, we were brand new and it was... our cohort and the other cohort and there we were in her beautiful studio and, you know, seeing all of her things and it was not, you know, here is this grandmother in the field, but here is this human that's invited us into her creative space. And that was a wonderful gift that she gave us. Yeah, that sounds so sweet and meaningful. Yeah. You know, I'm curious about kind of moving back towards the work in the classroom and how when creating is the focus that there is, you know, that the flow shows up. right? That it's sometimes each individual is flowing with themselves and with the art materials and with creating, or it can be the whole group flowing together with movement or with creating together. And then this third, this third form shows up, this third idea, this third creation. And I wonder if you could share your experience of that, what that's like for you as a facilitator, maybe an example of it. I think one of the things that's become really lovely about the world that we're in now where we have these smartwatches that can, you can just set a timer and it's just gonna buzz on my wrist so that I can really be in that and model that immersion in the creative process in the room, not watching the clock and holding time for all of us, but not doing that clock watching. which it sounds like a small thing, but it's actually become huge in just really being able to be present with them and in that creative process. And then getting to witness people, especially in person, especially when we're doing something that's like a lot of different media happening all at once, there's like this moment where the room gets quiet except for the sounds of the materials. And I think we missed that so much during the pandemic because when there was making during the pandemic and we're on zoom, like everyone's doing their thing, some of them would go camera off and we didn't have that sound. And the first class that I had back in person after that, we all spontaneously burst into tears. And I'm going to cry right now, even thinking about it. That first moment of just. silence in the room except for the art materials moving on paper. And we couldn't have articulated before that that was gonna be the thing. But when it happened, we all kind of looked around at each other and it was just this relief and joy and grief of we missed that. We've been missing that sound, that goosebump instilling like, creative process where we're all working on something and we're having this relationship with this thing that we're creating, but we're also in this shared space of creating together. It's like, you can't force that and you also can't... You can't, as useful as all these technologies have been, it's not the same. It's not the same. No. Yeah. Thank you for that description. I can hear it. Yeah. You know, I'm wondering what your hopes are for your future in this field as an educator, what other courses you're hoping to create or... you know, experiences that you want to facilitate. Once coming up, so when I first started teaching the art therapy with older adults, my intention at the time was to have one day of the class be in work with older adults. And we had planned that for the first semester of teaching it. And then we had, I think it was a flu outbreak at the building where I was working for my full -time work. And so I couldn't have the students come. And then, After that, there would just always be these interruptions that would prevent students from being able to have that embodied experience of, you know, they can hear about it from me and I can show them images and I can show them, you know, the documentary, but it's not the same, right? And next Sunday, all goes well. I'm going to get to have the second day of the class here at Enso Village and we'll get to do some art. and have some nature -based experiences and share a meal. And oh my gosh, I just want it to work so badly because I've just seen the ways with some of the other work that I've done where students have gotten to come and be in person with these incredible humans and the way that the work is different from me just telling about it or writing about it. It's different to sit down and. make work alongside somebody and hear their life story and connect with them and find this human connection with them. So I'm really excited for that. I'm really excited for continuing to build that. And if there was like a... a dream class I could teach. I do this work in art journals and I do this kind of non -clinical art therapy work in mentoring people and creating art journals. I'd love to teach more of a one unit class or whatever in doing that with... with students, because I've just found across so many different populations that that's been really valuable. I've been keeping art journals since I was 16 years old. And so this is like this lifelong practice for me. And I incorporate it in where I can, but I would love to have the luxury of focusing an entire class on that. Yeah. And then museum -based work. I'm also super interested in doing more work with that. So, yeah. well, may all these dreams come true. Would you tell us a little bit about Enso Village? Enzo Village, yeah. So we are first of its kind, Zen -inspired senior living. When we're totally full, we'll be like 240-some people, independent living, assisted living, and memory care. We have, I think, as of this week, 110 people living here. It's myself. My title is Head of Inspirement. And I have a music therapist that works with me. And we have this incredible... dynamic group of folks that's moving in here on this beautiful campus. We have a Zendo in the center of our whole campus and it's just a beautiful, beautiful space. And it's really, really different. I've had a lot of experience working with older adults in wonderful settings, but this is really truly something very different. every person that works here will have a training in mindfulness and care and how that works for ourselves and how it works in working with older adults. And then residents will also have the opportunity to do that training so that they can provide care for each other. So yeah, it's just, I can most of the time believe it's real and that we're here. And it's also been, as an art therapist, really wonderful to work with people who have had, we have a lot of artists here, a lot of very creative people here, and a lot of very able to be just here now in the present moment. And the different ways that they express that, not everyone who lives here is a Zen practitioner, but everyone who lives here. was attracted to that idea in some way. So this ability to just kind of show up and sit down and do some collage, and one person described it as her favorite way of dreaming was looking through the collage material and creating this image that wasn't there before. And I just am madly in love with the work that I get to do. It's... you know, with all the difficulty of working in a building that's under construction as we're in it, which, you know, sometimes the fire alarm goes off. Thank goodness it didn't while we were having this conversation. But, you know, you'll walk down a hallway and then next week you can't walk down that hallway. And, you know, it's my art studios aren't done yet, but, you know, when they are, it's going to be great. And for the time being, We're finding ways to be together and it's amazing. Hmm. That's great. It's so amazing to love one's work. Yeah. I mean, I think that's something I tell students all the time, especially if they're having those hard days and they're thinking about quitting and is this worth it? And I can honestly look them in the eyes and say, even on my worst day, even on my very worst day of being an art therapist, I have loved every day of this work. So even on those days when like maybe the job itself or the setting itself or something else going on has been really hard, I've loved the work, right? Like I've loved the fields and what we get to do, what we get the great privilege of doing. And so it's worth it. Yeah. it is a great privilege. Yeah, yeah. You know, what I, as we've been talking, what I feel off of you is that you are so very heart focused and heart like centered, I guess is a better way of saying it. And that, I mean, tell me if I'm projecting, but it feels like it seems like balance is just a really important, it's just really important to you. And what happens in your classroom when things become imbalanced or when conflict shows up in the conversation or in the body posture of your students? How do you approach that? How do you facilitate it? Yeah, I think that's the hardest thing is that sometimes the educator has to be the person to enforce the deadline. It has to be the person to enforce the policy. And it's really hard. It's a lesson hard one. Because when you don't do it, that's not setting anybody up for success. And... I've found that the thing that can be helpful for it is just really clear communication from the beginning and then circling back to that when it's necessary. Like I put in red letters in all of my syllabi, I will not chase you down for assignments. Like you are responsible for your due dates and we go over that and over that and over that. And still sometimes there's things that come up. It just happened last semester. Whereas like, no, I'm sorry. This is like... we've gone way past that and you didn't communicate with me earlier. If you communicated with me earlier, we'd be in a different situation. The grades have already been submitted. You talked to me three days after grades were due and the semester was over. That's it. You know, like this is a one unit class. Sometimes I have to remind myself of that. Like how many, how many, this is, it maybe sounds coarse, but I also, this is how I protect myself. This is a one unit class. Am I putting five units worth of my heart and soul into this? And I've just learned that I have to have that boundary for myself. So some of the responsibility, if I've clearly communicated it to them, needs to be on them because I can't do the work for them because I'm not going to go out into the world and keep on track of their charts and keep on track of all their things they need to do. So they have to show me that they can do that. And that's been a hard learning. I don't think I did. I think I did a lot of times five units worth of heart and soul for one unit classes in my first year or two of teaching for sure. Yeah. you get to experience that conflict inside of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I heard you say, you know, that on your, on the hardest day of being an art therapist, you still love the work. On your hardest day of being an educator, I imagine that you still love the work as well. Is that accurate? Yeah. yeah, because it's, you know, the place I can always get to. I'm thinking of an example where some students were there was some splitting going on between two different sections of class and they didn't like the way their due dates were assigned for between the two different classes because the cadence of the semester and it was, you know, it was a difficult couple of conversations that happened there and it was just reminding myself of. how difficult it is to be in that final year of your program and you're, you know, you're, you're balancing your coursework and this capstone project. And also those like anxieties in the back of your head that I remember so clearly of like, and what am I going to do when I graduate? Like, am I going to find a job? Where am I going to be? You know, all of those worries. And, and so being able to take myself out of this heated conversation and stand over here for a moment. and remind myself that it's not just this thing, right? What they're showing up with in this upset conversation that we're having is not really about these due dates and the equity of between the section one and section two. It's really not about that at all. It's about all of this other stuff that's also here, right? Yeah. So being able to step back and see the larger picture and to not take things personally, it sounds like. Yeah. not it. And that's that again, that is that is a hard one lesson. It's not it's not me. Because you feel like you want to solve it for them and you feel like you want to. You know, you want to be liked, you want to be respected and sometimes. You have to be the person that says no, or sometimes you have to be the person that says, I'm sorry, like you didn't turn it in, you're going to have to repeat this class. And that's just, yeah, where you have to fail someone or you have to turn them in for plagiarism or whatever it is, like those things that you know, like in the moment it's difficult, but you know this other wiser part of yourself is like, I'm protecting the fields. I'm protecting this person. and protecting their potential future clients. Yeah, and you're keeping the boundaries that were communicated. So you're also following through with the agreements. Yeah. Well, as a way to end, I... I'd love to hear what you would share with a new educator around the challenges of teaching in higher ed, the gifts of it. What would be important to share to a new educator in the therapeutic arts field? I think the thing that really impressed me from one of my mentors in doing this teaching work was her saying, I love learning alongside my students. And I think those have been the educators that I've enjoyed working with the most across my entire educational career is the ones that I could tell they had thought about that syllabus. They were showing up in class to learn with us, not to regurgitate stuff to us and at us. And when we think about longevity in being an educator, I think that's also really important, right? If you're just like spinning out the same syllabus and the same slides every time. Is it efficient? Maybe, but is it good for you? You know, does it feel good to you? Do you, are you learning each semester? Like to me, educating is this opportunity to learn, to keep learning too. Like, and I know I'm, you know, maybe to the extreme degree of a lifelong learner, I will always be doing that. But it's like one of the wonderful things about teaching is like, what's new in this, in this area. And, what next can I bring to the students? And kind of always thinking about that, like always have your ears and eyes open for something that is applicable to whatever it is you're teaching. And you don't have to do it all right away. Like I usually have kind of a running list of like, add this to the dolls class, add this to the domestic violence class. And then when it gets around to the next year or the next semester, I've got this kind of little repository of stuff that I'm excited to bring. So then that helps me show up at the front of the class energized, not just like by rote, spitting out this same thing that I've said a million times. Do I tell the same jokes sometimes? Yeah, sometimes I tell the same jokes. But as far as the content and all of that, like that should be new each time. It should feel new to you. so that you're showing up with that beginner's mind and with that newness alongside your students. Thank you. Yeah. Let's stay inspired. Right? absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I've really, really appreciated the conversation and all of the care and the passion that you bring to this work. It's just so fun. Hehehehe