Dr. Adenike Webb Interview: Where are you situated?

Adenike Webb, PhD, MT-BC is a board-certified music therapist with 20 years of experience. Her clinical work has been mainly in inpatient and outpatient behavioral health settings. She received her undergraduate training in music therapy at Radford University and completed her Masters and PhD in Music Therapy at Temple University. Her personal and clinical experiences as an Afro-Caribbean woman and immigrant in the United States sparked her research interests in developing cultural awareness and sensitivity in music therapy practice and education.  She is active in her local and professional communities in educating on and advocating for diversity, equity and inclusion.

Dr. Webb has served as adjunct faculty at Temple University and Molloy College. She is currently Director of Academic Services at Cultural Connections by Design, a diversity education consulting company. A founding member of the Black Music Therapy Network, Inc., Dr. Webb cohosts their sponsored podcast Black Creative Healing. 

Transcript

MVK (00:01.75)
Hello, I am excited to introduce Dr. Adenike Webb. Thank you for being here. You've been a board certified music therapist for 21 years. Is that right?

Adenike Webb (00:07.462)
Hello.

Adenike Webb (00:16.378)
It will be 21 next year. It's 20 right now, which is a wild number. Ha ha ha.

MVK (00:20.279)
Okay. So I'll say to get you have been, You're a board certified music therapist and have been for about 20 years and faculty, clinical education coordinator for the creative arts therapies department at Drexel, founder of the Black Music Therapy Network and also.

Adenike Webb (00:29.617)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (00:40.783)
of a founding member, not the founder, like one of the founding members.

MVK (00:43.63)
Excuse me, excuse me, one of the founding members, my apologies, so founding member of the Black Music Therapy Network and co-host of the podcast, Black Creative Healing. Yeah, well, welcome, glad to have you here. I'd love to hear, to start out with your thoughts about boundaries and belonging. I'm curious how you think about boundaries when it comes to your work as an educator.

Adenike Webb (00:48.423)
Yes.

Adenike Webb (00:59.294)
Thank you, thank you.

MVK (01:13.106)
And where does belonging fit into this work?

Adenike Webb (01:17.382)
Oh wow, those are good questions. Um.

MVK (01:20.638)
Hahaha

Adenike Webb (01:23.87)
So I'll start with boundaries. That's really interesting because I know I recognize them. I don't know if I'm always holding them like front and center, you know? I think I become more aware of them when I'm engaging with students who might be having a difficult time with the coursework or in class like.

life matters are getting in the way of them being able to engage the way they would like in class. And the boundary I come up against is like educator versus therapist, you know? And ever since I was a teaching assistant, I remembered my supervising professor saying, you are not the therapist, you are not the therapist, you are not the therapist. And I know that. But it's so easy to respond to the needs

MVK (02:04.2)
Yes.

Adenike Webb (02:22.482)
that I'm seeing from that lens of, oh, cause I was a therapist long before I was an educator. And so trying to be like, well, hold up. I can be supportive, but I cannot support in this way. So I find that I'm always trying to do that dance. Like, am I too far over? Am I, you know, cause as an educator, my responsibility.

MVK (02:46.149)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (02:51.062)
is to see that they can understand the material, they can apply the material, and they can go out and do what they need to do. I'm not supposed to make the rest of their life kind of come together. So it's been interesting because I find that my heart goes out to students and I'm like, well, I can only, what do you need to do the work in this class?

You know, I'm happy to talk through adjusting things a certain way so you can engage the way you feel most comfortable and be successful. However, beyond that, please go to the counseling center. Please follow up with this person. Please follow up with that. So I'm always mindful of that as a music therapy educator.

MVK (03:39.822)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And therapeutic education can be confusing in that way for the facilitators because there are always opportunities for the curriculum to offer, you know, like a therapeutic experience, right? And so facilitating it really is a dance. You were doing a sway side to side. I really appreciate that because it does feel like this dance, you know.

Adenike Webb (03:55.59)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (04:05.274)
It is, it is. And for example, just this week I was doing, I wanted to model some of the music therapy methods we engage with. So I'm teaching incoming students and it's a graduate program at Drexel. And none of the students really have a music therapy background. They haven't done undergraduate music therapy. So they're coming into it pretty much brand new, with the exception of one actually. And so I thought, you know, I'll take time each class.

for the remainder of our term, to do music experiences and then kind of talk about like, okay, now how might this work in a music therapy setting? And I found myself being very cautious with like, okay, what songs am I choosing if we're doing a song lyric discussion? What songs am I choosing if we're just going to do a recreative singing experience or recreative or a song parody if we're gonna rewrite something? And then when I am

engaging them in the music? Am I telling them to engage with a particular lens as in act as if you are or do I just present? So what I happen to do is like hey just we're gonna do this and you just come in and I'll ask them questions like what did you think of the lyrics? What did you how did the music you know what came up for you as you heard the melody or whatever and so you're just getting them to react from them their own personal authentic experience.

but trying to be mindful of like, I can't really go into any processing if stuff comes up. For example, I used the song Lost Boy by Ruth B. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's a very, it has like a sort of bittersweet nostalgic feel to it as the singer talks about being a lost boy from Neverland, always hanging out with Peter Pan. And it's not a evokes, you know, escaping a difficult reality to a

to an idolized place and recapturing some of the joys and whimsy of youth, you know? And, you know, it's interesting, somebody latched onto that, saying like, you know, like life is not a fairy tale, life is reality, you know? And like I found that out. So were I a therapist, I'd be like, well, tell me about your reality. But the class is not the space to dive into like, well, how different is reality from that fantasy you've created.

Adenike Webb (06:28.39)
You know, and then, you know, students who felt like attention from the music because of where they were in their current, you know, their own lives, they noted they felt a discomfort with the music. And I acknowledged it and said, thank you for sharing that. However, were I the therapist, we would have like, OK, so where do you think that might be coming from? And so as I was just trying to be like, I want you to engage with the music so you can understand.

MVK (06:41.739)
Mm.

Adenike Webb (06:55.75)
how a client might respond, what might be coming up. But the next step I can't do with you, right? Because that's not ethical as an educator to go into that realm with you. I can tell you what can happen, how if you were facilitating this with a particular group of service users, how you might want to continue with this. So it's a really interesting thing. And like, just trying to hold it in a space where...

if we're engaging with music, it's kind of in this box. And it's pretty safe, it's pretty contained. And I can point out how things could possibly go, but I can't really let it go there. You know, so.

MVK (07:29.224)
Mmm.

MVK (07:33.4)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (07:39.678)
Yeah. And that's part of the boundaries. Like the container includes some of that personal, the personal associations, the depth in the body. And yet to go any further would be outside of what your class offers. Yeah. I'm curious within this space that you create,

Adenike Webb (07:43.13)
Yeah, yeah.

Adenike Webb (07:58.938)
Yeah, right, exactly, exactly.

MVK (08:08.854)
How do you facilitate belonging? What does that look like, feel like, sound like?

Adenike Webb (08:14.1)
Um...

Adenike Webb (08:17.706)
Well, I'll kind of go back to like the first day of class when we started with going through the syllabus and all that stuff And I just basically shared where I'm coming from, you know So every now and again my accent will pop up So I let them know that you know, I'm originally from Trinidad and Tobago how long I've been here a little bit of what my Journey to this point has been and how I see our time together so I told them that like

MVK (08:21.355)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (08:45.206)
I know a lot about stuff because I've had experience, you know, doing certain things, but I'm by no means the expert. And you're going to come in and you're going to have experiences that will bring a lot of information that will inform how we understand things, you know. So, yes, on paper, I am responsible for this class and I have to give a grade. So there is that level of hierarchy in there that we can't totally ignore. However, as much as possible.

I want it to be a space where we're all learning together and we're all sharing slash teaching together, you know? And I hope that we do it in a way that everyone feels respected and valued. So that's kind of how I presented it. And I do my best to like, I guess affirm how people share things, say things and comment. So like, you know,

MVK (09:29.966)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (09:41.546)
They always say there's never a dumb question or anything like that. I don't use that term exactly, but I just ask your questions and we work it through. For example, after I had them do the music experience as themselves, as I go, put on your therapist hat, say this was a particular group of service users ages 18 to 24, what might be a goal of bringing in this kind of song?

MVK (10:10.957)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (10:10.994)
to have this kind of discussion. And for some people, it's the first time they're ever thinking of articulating a goal. You know, so things are kind of nebulous and long. And so, you know, so like, okay, let's distill it. You know, let's bring it down. And I say, okay, I like that you're looking at it from this angle. So how about we try to get to what's lying underneath it? You know, so trying to not say like, oh, that's wrong, or that's not a right goal, because there's so many ways of interpreting

MVK (10:34.466)
Hmm

Adenike Webb (10:40.986)
or expressing the same idea, the same concept when it comes to a goal. So just I try my best to accept what they give and work with them to refine it if it needs to get more aligned with what the concepts and objectives of the class are.

MVK (10:56.59)
Hmm, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I hear, what I hear in what you're saying is that you're offering an inclusive space where students really are invited to bring their questions, bring themselves. And that, you know, that perspective around you're a learner too, as the educator, even though there is a hierarchy, that perspective of

Adenike Webb (11:10.043)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (11:22.823)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (11:25.35)
of being a learner reduces the power dynamic a little bit. That's what I'm hearing you say. Yeah. I'd love to hear about the classes that you teach. What are you teaching? What do you love teaching about teaching?

Adenike Webb (11:30.606)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (11:41.766)
Oh, oh wow. So this class I'm teaching is called Principles and Practices in Music Therapy. And it's the first music therapy, well, it's not the first because they have other classes, but it's like the foundational overview kind of course. And I've taught it before at another institution with another title, but it's pretty similar. But that was more for undergraduate students and this is more graduate students.

MVK (11:43.554)
haha

Adenike Webb (12:10.81)
And I feel like when I look back, I don't think I made much of a distinction in terms of the content I think both levels of students needed. I might have had different expectations for the assignments or whatever, but I just kind of believe like, this is what you need to know and I'll help you know it when it comes to getting these things. So that course, I really do enjoy it because

It's brand new, you're like, what is music therapy? And then we get into these really cool, I love definitions and at this stage, a lot needs to be defined because When you're talking about defining music therapy, you gotta define music and you gotta define therapy. And to understand those things, you gotta understand what is health and health is culturally situated as is music. So what is culture and where are you situated? You know, so like.

MVK (13:00.569)
Yes. Mmm. Cool.

Adenike Webb (13:04.402)
bringing all that in and what if you have an understanding of music and health and therapy that differs from what your clients have or from what your facility that you're working in has. So what happens there? You know, so I love having those discussions. They're so rich, you know, and for some people, they might have already been on a journey of exploring those things. And for other people it's like, oh, mind is being blown right now. And I hope it's not too overwhelming, but it's like, I think it's so rich.

MVK (13:15.84)
I love that.

MVK (13:20.151)
so rich.

MVK (13:27.809)
Oh.

MVK (13:33.835)
Ugh.

Adenike Webb (13:33.882)
Like we had a great discussion about what is music. I said, how would you define music? And one student said, sound with intention. And I was like, okay, cool. And I didn't get a chance, but I was thinking, but a dog barking is sound with intention. The dog is making a sound with the intent of alerting another being to something. Should we call that music?

MVK (13:38.542)
Hmm.

MVK (14:01.344)
I mean, I don't.

Adenike Webb (14:04.866)
And then I put up the example, like some machines, for example, I like listening to the copy machine when it's doing like 20, 30, 50 pages, because there's a rhythm that happens. And you know, you had a little, all the little syncopations of the different pieces of the mechanism, you know, doing its thing. So I find myself grooving to the copy machine. But is it music? So then we got into like, well.

MVK (14:22.268)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (14:31.822)
it depends on the audience, it depends on the intent of the sound producer. So we could get into all these other different things and maybe we need to bring all these things together. And I am so stimulated by that because I feel like some of those things are things we take for granted. Like we take for granted what health is, what music is, but it can have such specific meaning to so many different people. So, hello?

MVK (14:57.326)
Hmm. Thank you. I love that. Oh, can you hear me? Did you lose my smart? Okay. I was I, I love that description of the conversation that you have. I too really like taking apart concepts and, and pushing the boundaries of, you know, the expectation of what the concept is and the spectrum of what, what is health, how we define health.

Adenike Webb (15:03.714)
Oh, sorry, it was frozen for a little bit.

Adenike Webb (15:22.163)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (15:27.286)
or how we define relationship or art and music. Woof, yeah, so rich.

Adenike Webb (15:31.046)
Yeah, yeah. And I don't know that we could ever really land on a definitive sentence that this is what it is. Cause I feel like everything's dynamic, you know? And contextual, everything is contextual. So I often tell people as much as I've been, I've been studying music therapy since 1997 and practicing, you know.

MVK (15:40.302)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (15:58.03)
I finished my internship like 2002. So I've been doing this a long time in a way. At every place I've gone, my definition of music therapy has expanded or shifted in some way because it's, music therapy looks different here in this place than it does over there in that place. And even if two of us are in the same facility, how person A does music therapy is different from how I do it. So it's like a different understanding and experience.

MVK (16:03.304)
Mm-hmm

MVK (16:25.358)
Mm-hmm. Ooh, I love that. I, you know, it really is so inclusive. And I imagine that large perspective invites students to be authentic and how they learn music therapy and then also how they practice it as future practitioners. Yeah.

Adenike Webb (16:44.774)
Yeah.

want them to not just be excited about it. You know, a lot of people come into creative arts therapies because like they their experience with the arts has been transformative and they want other people to have that experience. And that's wonderful. And I want that to stay. I also want them to not feel locked into doing music therapy as I do it, or as the textbook says to do it.

MVK (17:15.531)
Right.

Adenike Webb (17:18.81)
I want them to be willing to experiment, willing to explore. Like every time I had when I was working full-time clinically and I'd have practicum or internship students come in I'd tell them In a kind of a way, this is an experiment, you know Feel free to do anything you want as long as you have a valid clinical reason to do it So, okay, you heard this song on the radio. Great. You don't just bring it in because it's a cool song How does that particular song on the radio? Apply to the needs and the

the treatment journey of the folks here. And once you can tie that in, in service to what they need, sure, bring it in. And maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But as a friend of mine says, worst case scenario, you'll learn something. So I always hoped I created a space where they felt comfortable enough to try things. And I found myself learning new songs and new ways of putting things together from students that I continued to do after they left. So it's like...

MVK (17:50.892)
and

MVK (18:00.056)
Mm.

Adenike Webb (18:15.346)
So I tell them that, you know, I do learn, I do learn from you, you know, and there's not one way to be. So yeah, that's what I hope they really walk away with.

MVK (18:19.526)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (18:25.674)
Mm-hmm. And that there's not one way to be and that they make an impact on you as the educator. Yeah. Wow. That's a real gift to share with them. I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm curious to hear how you define your responsibilities as an educator in this field. Like what comes to mind when you think about that word responsibility?

Adenike Webb (18:31.826)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (18:36.506)
Oh, thank you. I hope so.

Adenike Webb (18:55.486)
Hmm. Okay, so some obvious things come up, like they need to know some foundational tenets, like certain principles. They need to know what this term means. They need to know what the four main methods are. They need to know what the treatment process is. So yeah, I know they need to know the essentials, but I also feel they need to know...

Adenike Webb (19:22.482)
They need to know the state of the field, the state of the profession as it exists. So what I do in one of my, in like maybe the second class, I, and I started doing this a few years ago and I just remain committed to doing it. I'll pull up the American Music Therapy Association every year does a survey of members. They call it the workforce analysis and something else. So they'll send it out this year. So they send it out every year, but the results for 2023,

MVK (19:44.837)
Mm.

Adenike Webb (19:51.11)
you'll get like 2024, 25 or something like that. So there's a little bit of a gap just because of the time it takes. So I'll get that information. It breaks down certain things. For example, of the respondents, what percentage identify as white? What percentage identify as different ethnicities, Hispanic, non-Hispanic, Black and so on? What percentage identify as LGBTQ?

what percentage identify as non-binary or trans and so on. And then I put up information for Philadelphia. So this is the city we're in. We see that our profession, which typically, ballpark numbers, our profession is about 88% white, 88% female, more or less. But then when you look at Philadelphia, it's about, I think,

MVK (20:41.727)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (20:48.894)
45% people of African American descent, maybe 40. It's high 40s. It's about 25% a city of people who speak English as a second language. It's about a little under 30% of people living after below the poverty line. So to start putting things together, like, where are you?

MVK (20:53.261)
and

MVK (21:11.335)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (21:17.502)
And look at this profession, look at the city, right? And if we take this profession demographic as the standard and we bring that into Philadelphia, what might some implications, what can come up? What are the implications of that? I mean, don't dive into it deeply in the second class, but I just want them to be aware. You've got to be aware of the state of the profession one. So you've got to be aware of the state of the environment communities that you're in.

MVK (21:19.555)
Oh yes.

MVK (21:33.844)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (21:38.317)
Hello.

Adenike Webb (21:48.026)
and the limitations of what has been done. So I really feel as an educator, my responsibility is to push the boundaries of what we know and what we do, right? And that's coming from, a little bit from my experience as an immigrant, you know, I came in, I was what, 18, 19, I started music therapy studies at about age 19 and coming from the Caribbean,

MVK (22:00.952)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (22:17.446)
As much as we get US Top 40 radio and TV programs and stuff like that, there was still a lot of American music and things I did not know. So I come into the music therapy program and these songs are standards. How you mean you don't know A Hard Day's Night by The Beatles? How you mean you don't know this by The Rolling Stones? Or you don't know that Billy Joel song? You know? So it's like, and not that was said with any malice. It was just like...

MVK (22:23.049)
So, good job.

MVK (22:26.671)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (22:33.442)
Mmm.

MVK (22:38.839)
Oof.

MVK (22:43.886)
Sure.

Adenike Webb (22:45.514)
is what they did. Now of course this is a music therapy school in the US prepares people to be music therapists in the US so I understand that you're using that. However even within that there is a wealth of music, of things that were not included when I was there. For example I don't think I was taught a gospel song. I was I don't think I was taught a rap song.

MVK (23:11.662)
Wow.

Adenike Webb (23:14.034)
I don't think I was taught a salsa song in my training. You know what I mean? I'm not saying that every program has to have that, but just to say that there was this kind of

hyper, not hyper focused, but there was an exclusion. Like anything else was other, you know, and you kind of figured it out on your own, but what might be considered, you know, you're centric American, like middle-class white centric kind of pop music was the standard, you know? So I feel as an educator, I need to tell people like, you cannot

MVK (23:46.411)
Right?

MVK (23:52.782)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (23:53.09)
limit yourself to that because that does a disservice to your clients of all backgrounds. You know, we learn, we talk about client preference as what drives our music choices. And so we have to be familiar with hip hop, with dubstep, with, and I'm not saying you can learn all those things all the time, but there has to be room in the curriculum where students...

MVK (23:58.051)
That's right.

Adenike Webb (24:21.118)
can get familiarity with other things, you know? And, or at least be given the foundation so they know how to explore another genre or another culture's music in a meaningful, respectful way. Cause you can't know every song, you can't know every artist, right? But I feel like I have to talk to them about making a conscious effort to do that, you know? And especially when people come from

MVK (24:37.55)
All right.

Adenike Webb (24:50.722)
music backgrounds that might not be your standard classical, you know, study classical music and all that sort of a thing, please bring in that music. Like, one of the assignments they did, which I inherited in the syllabus I had, was a music presentation based on the work done by an Israeli music therapist. I believe in the article she was working with a group of Israeli and Palestinian folks and so to explore like...

group cohesion, folks getting to know each other, everybody brought in music. But it was like a playlist, but there were different ways you can do it. One was like chronologically, so music from when I was 2, 4, 12. One could be historical. This is when, you know, I lost my first tooth and now this is when I went to college and now this is when I scrape my knee on the bicycle. So it doesn't have to be in order, but it could be really significant moments.

MVK (25:45.938)
Right.

Adenike Webb (25:48.07)
Another could just be, hey, this is what I'm listening to right now. And another could be, this is my favorite music of all time. And so they present the music and in that article, they also had like a lot of journaling that went along with it. It was like a more intensive process, but for the purposes of our class, they did a condensed presentation. And then we were talking about creating a playlist and I need to follow up with my students about that, about getting the playlist onto our Blackboard shell.

Cause it was like, you know, now we get to know a little bit more about people, you know, and we shouldn't exclude that. Like you don't have to divorce yourself from your music and your cultural background and the work that you do. It's all in how, I think it's all in how sharing that music serves the needs of the group or the needs of the clients that you're working with, you know? So I want people to know.

MVK (26:42.839)
and

Adenike Webb (26:46.31)
They remain human as a music therapist and not a blank slate, you know? So as an educator, I think it's important for them to be aware of themselves as people and as therapists and how the personal and the therapists intersect and how that gets into working with the clients that they have. So I guess those are the biggest things that I feel responsible for them knowing.

MVK (26:49.735)
Right?

MVK (27:07.12)
I'm sorry.

Yes.

Hmm. Yes, I just can imagine how rich that is in the classroom and how there's both the experience of seeing oneself represented in the music that's shared and also learning outside of one's like box of experience, you know? Yeah.

Adenike Webb (27:36.402)
Yeah, I enjoy it. I mean, I hope they're enjoying the process too, but I'm really enjoying these classes.

MVK (27:43.667)
Mm-hmm. And I bet you're getting some really great playlists also.

Adenike Webb (27:47.502)
Yeah, I mean, I've heard music and I would never have known to go search out, you know, so I really I'm so glad I used you know, I'm doing this because I'm like, Oh, yeah, we need to follow up on getting that playlist together. So yeah.

MVK (27:52.984)
Yeah.

MVK (28:00.567)
I, you know, hearing about hearing about this assignment that you do with students, it makes me curious about what other assignments or directives that you do in class light you up as an educator. And also, you get to witness transformation in your students around the work.

Adenike Webb (28:23.27)
So one of my favorite things to do is assign an arts-based reflection. I did an arts-based dissertation, arts-based research dissertation, and that was such a meaningful experience for me that I was like, I'm just gonna bring it in to anything I teach that. So I started with undergraduate students where at the other institution I was at before.

they said you'll get a prompt, and the prompts just depended on what we were covering in class. And I invited them to use any art form. It did not have to be limited to music, even though we are music therapists. I invited them to try, since we have maybe four or five prompts, try a different one for each prompt. And so for example, this term, the first prompt was...

What would you, like write a, not write, but compose a message for your future self as you prepare to engage in this music therapy journey. And I listed something, as I cover any two of the following, and I listed some points like what skills you hope to develop, what you might wanna let go of as you come to this journey, what you might wanna bring forward with you and so on. And I invited people to choose their modality. And I said,

there's a written component to what you do. So, if you, so regardless of whether you do creative writing, movement, song, or whatever, along with it, I want you to put a written piece that says why you chose that particular modality, how you felt engaging with the topic through that modality, and what insights, if any, came up for you. And I have found, every time I do this,

MVK (30:11.936)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (30:19.314)
students just like, especially when we were doing it in the, in a class that was focusing on music therapy and psychiatric settings, like it really increased the level of empathy people had to others. And maybe even the compassion and appreciation they can show to themselves, you know? I feel like maybe some folks don't...

MVK (30:32.104)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (30:39.752)
Mm.

Adenike Webb (30:45.362)
articulate the insight that they get out or the impact that the experiences have. But I can see like, yeah, like you, something's different. You've had a little bit of a shift here, you know? And I love it. And they're my favorite assignments to receive because everybody does something different and I get to see how they're thinking, how they're feeling. You know, they don't have to share these assignments with anybody else. It comes to me. They can be as raw as they want to be.

MVK (30:56.735)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (31:03.563)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (31:14.758)
I just love it. Like, I'm amazed at the capacity for creativity and, and affect that people display in these things. That's my all time favorite assignment to do.

MVK (31:28.01)
Hmm. That sounds really, really meaningful for everybody. Yeah. And receiving the spectrum of possibility from our students, it's just it's also inspiring, you know, just like getting new music. It's like, wow, I didn't even I didn't even imagine that this could happen. And and you have made something new, you know. Yeah.

Adenike Webb (31:32.066)
I hope so!

Adenike Webb (31:42.45)
I'm sorry.

Adenike Webb (31:51.184)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (31:53.31)
It makes me wonder a little bit about, you know, when we do creative assignments with our students, whether it's in class or for homework, they're kind of like what we started talking about in terms of boundaries. There can be a breaking open. There can be a, you know, revealing that happens through the creative process. And I'm wondering how heartache shows up in your classrooms or in the assignments. I'm wondering how

Adenike Webb (32:08.867)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (32:22.734)
conflict shows up in your classroom or in the assignments and yeah what that looks like, how you hold it.

Adenike Webb (32:29.778)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (32:33.17)
Wow, that's a great question. I'll start with the heartbreak. I'm thinking back to when I was working more with undergraduate students and there was an arts-based reflection that one of them did. And I was surprised at how, like how, into how much detail they went with their experience, because they...

they wrote a song reflecting an experience they'd had with someone else and how that impacted the way they saw who they were. And I wasn't expecting that level of self-disclosure, nor that level of insight from that particular student. And I was really moved by how that was like a part of their journey of like making sense of what happened and healing from

MVK (33:06.51)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (33:30.182)
Like it wasn't anything that was like, you know, traumatic to say like, oh, I need to refer you out to the counseling center right now. But I really was like moved and in a way like honored that this was part of the way they could make sense of what was happening. And it gave me more compassion for that student and how I could support them in the class, you know? I go, wow.

MVK (33:58.094)
Hmm

Adenike Webb (33:59.41)
like, wow, you really went into it, goodness, you know? In terms of conflict, I have to confess I'm generally a conflict avoidant person. So I don't like conflict that much, but I'm learning more and more through my work with the podcasts that I do. We have created like an online community where people get together and we talk about stuff. And one of the things that has come up is this idea.

of leaning into dissonance as a way of being in communities. I'm really grasping at that, like holding onto that. Like, okay, if I really want to be in community with folks, we gotta lean into the dissonance. So when conflict comes up, I can't really avoid it. Gotta find a way to be with it, you know? I haven't had major conflict, but I've seen where like they're differing of opinions or maybe someone might feel like,

MVK (34:32.311)
Hmm.

MVK (34:46.283)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (34:56.646)
they have the definitive answer about something and their understanding of the content is what everybody else needs to have. And so I try in those situations, I always find something to validate one in this year. Like I appreciate the you know the passion with which you hold this conviction or something like that. And I would like to poke at it a little bit.

MVK (35:04.011)
Oh.

Adenike Webb (35:25.902)
and present you with this, you know? Or maybe point out that, okay, you're saying this and I see where you're coming from. However, have you heard what this person is saying? Let's bring that into the, let's examine that as well. So trying to find ways to be like, again, there's more than one way of being. There's more than one way of understanding. And while people may have more experience in some ways than others,

MVK (35:50.574)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (35:55.626)
know, it shouldn't be used to diminish somebody else's contributions or something. So I've always, I'm not a very blunt person in the sense of like, you shouldn't have done that, you're wrong. That's not me. I'm more like, I don't know if it's gentle or if it's diplomatic or if it's kind of, let's ease into it. But I will, I didn't be known that like, okay, we're not going to hold on to this

MVK (36:02.145)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (36:25.158)
We are going to bring, You know, so like that.

MVK (36:26.502)
Mm-hmm. I hear what it sounds like you do is like you're, you're kind of making a weaving in the classroom, like when conflict comes up. You know, it's like, okay, you brought this in and then this person brought this in and then there's this here and it's all, it's all really important is what I hear you say.

Adenike Webb (36:32.971)
Ooh, I like that.

Adenike Webb (36:45.489)
Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean.

MVK (36:47.81)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (36:53.442)
I like to listen to what people say and give space for people to just share their thoughts because I found that for me, a lot of times as I talk out loud, I start making connections about, oh this is what I really am thinking. Oh okay, now that makes sense. So giving people space to put their stuff out there. And then...

I always feel like everybody has a truth, right? And there's a reason they're saying what they're saying. Now, their truth may not include somebody else's experience, but to recognize someone's truth doesn't mean you have to invalidate somebody else's. So I try to find ways where people can be like, we can share our truths and we can hold the fact that there are multiple.

realities around this particular situation or whatever it is. I'm not trying to get people to agree because that may never happen but I hope people in class recognize that we have to be respectful even if we don't understand or accept what somebody else is saying but we have to acknowledge that it can exist in the space with us.

MVK (38:02.61)
I mean, this is like micro macro talk that you're bringing in here. No, sounds like really important life skills that are being facilitated when it comes to how do we hold multiple beliefs at the same time? You know.

Adenike Webb (38:13.112)
Mm.

Adenike Webb (38:20.326)
Yeah... yeah...

MVK (38:23.762)
Yeah, kind of makes me hold, you know, the multiple beliefs that are clashing right now. And the pain that it can cause when people aren't listening, you know? Yeah. Hold in space for that. Yeah. And then it leads me to the wondering of, of this

Adenike Webb (38:38.732)
Yes.

MVK (38:49.794)
this thing that educators kind of have to do in higher ed and that's specifically therapeutic fields and it's gatekeeping. And the term itself, right, there's sounds that go with that term because it has, at least I have some associations with that term that don't feel good. And I'm curious, what is gatekeeping?

Adenike Webb (39:00.173)
Ah, ah.

Adenike Webb (39:14.16)
Uh huh.

MVK (39:19.266)
to you and how does it show up in your work as an educator?

Adenike Webb (39:25.682)
Wow. And this is so interesting because we're actually, I'm part of a task force, so to speak, a little committee at my department that we're looking at coming up with some professional disposition so we can have in our student manual. Basically, this is what we expect when you come into the program and what you can be like when you leave, you know? Because at the end of the day,

they have to meet certain standards, especially if you're going for licensure. You have to display certain kinds of knowledge, certain kinds of skills. And that is also tied into like beliefs and attitudes and values and so on. So I think gatekeeping.

I've been, prior to this moment, as in like this time of my life, I was a little bit more on the side of like, well yeah, not everybody can be a rocket scientist, not everybody can be a football player or basketball player, so not everybody can be a music therapist. So they don't meet X, Y, Z, you're not a music therapist, you know? And I still think that not everything is for everybody, right?

MVK (40:27.715)
Mm.

Adenike Webb (40:41.062)
And at the same time now, I feel like...

Adenike Webb (40:46.462)
How do we, like there has to be a different kind of allowance, especially when we're getting students who are more open about having maybe invisible disabilities that might have previously shown up as a behavior or attitude that we think is not suitable for the field, you know what I mean? So, I've been reading like in preparation for developing these dispositions that we were reading different

MVK (41:06.423)
Mmm.

Yes.

Adenike Webb (41:15.978)
Pieces of literature and that was something that came up. It was it was a group of on Social workers really who are looking at you know how do you set up these things and they referenced cases where people were dismissed from a program and then were Challenging that took it, you know took it to court and stuff because really and truly they might have had mental health issues and did not receive the kinds of accommodations that would have allowed them to successfully complete the program because

MVK (41:42.795)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (41:44.594)
the way their mental health needs were surfacing were seen as a deficiency, you know? So that's a thing to kind of look at, like.

MVK (41:55.743)
Right. Oh, so you're talking about the ableism that is woven through dispositions in therapeutic education. Is that what we're talking about? Wow, yeah.

Adenike Webb (42:04.678)
Yes, yes. So, and I mean.

Like I said, we do have to have standards. Like for someone to be a therapist, then I do believe they need to have certain mindsets and values and abilities because you're working with very vulnerable people, right? Whether they are in a particular kind of institution or something, whatever. In our society, people seek out therapists at their most vulnerable moments, right? So if that is the case,

MVK (42:25.259)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (42:41.226)
you have to be, there has to be a standard of like, this is the kind of acceptable, safe, ethical treatment that is provided. And are you able to provide that, you know? Now, I think with, we need, as students come into the program, they might understand that, and we have to adjust the expectations as they learn more that we will expect to see more of certain kinds of things. However, we cannot.

MVK (42:48.253)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (42:51.968)
Yeah.

MVK (43:07.031)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (43:09.71)
be ableist to be like, well, because this person is showing this kind of behavior or this thing, they really aren't qualified. But if they're telling us that they have a have a need that that's a really sticky thing. Like, I, ah, it's a double edged sort of a thing. My goodness.

MVK (43:12.75)
Shoot, yeah.

MVK (43:24.149)
Mmm.

MVK (43:28.618)
It really is. And we're also talking about the possibility of students who are learning about their neurodivergencies, their mental health challenges. They may be just at the beginning of the journey of learning. And so being able to communicate needs around accommodations or having the support to communicate those needs can be challenging. The student might not be there yet.

Adenike Webb (43:39.575)
Great, great.

Adenike Webb (43:44.478)
Exactly.

Adenike Webb (43:58.63)
Yes, yes. Yeah. So it's, it's um...

MVK (44:01.805)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (44:06.226)
It's really interesting. It's really, really interesting. I don't know what's the thing to do. I mean, every creative arts therapy's discipline has their, you know, they have their certification and then those who also get the LPC, they have that, you know, and then there's continuing education you need to do to maintain all these things. So one can hope that there are safeguards in place that will keep people at the...

the level of knowledge and skill required for the work that they're doing. And at the same time, you know, we have to make room for people who may not have fit what we initially thought was the standard of a therapist but are still doing the kinds of things necessary in the therapy setting. So it's really interesting.

MVK (44:52.151)
Yeah.

MVK (45:03.851)
Mm-hmm. Once again, I hear from you the importance of expanding, like expanding the space, bringing more in, inclusive practices.

Adenike Webb (45:12.294)
Yes, yes.

MVK (45:17.531)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (45:18.454)
And it all sounds so beautiful. And sometimes it seems like it's a simple implementation. Other times it's just not. But I don't think we should, I don't think we should abandon the effort because it's not a simple solution. And I think, you know, on our way to figuring out how to be more inclusive, less ableist and still providing

MVK (45:26.646)
No.

Adenike Webb (45:48.102)
the caliber of therapists that will truly, you know, that is competent, so to speak, to do what needs to be done. Like, I feel like we have to own that we will make mistakes, but we keep learning from it. I feel like we need to be more receptive to input from students, you know, like, not get, you know, be willing to take the feedback, be willing to take

MVK (46:08.406)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (46:15.678)
to sit and dialogue with them, you know? And it may not always be pleasant. They may have to point some fingers at us for a little bit, you know, and that's not fun, but I don't know. We have to commit to doing that.

MVK (46:24.075)
And they do.

MVK (46:31.886)
Yeah, yeah. So letting that like role as expert kind of just, you know, dissolve perhaps, or at least like loosen a bit so that our students coming up can teach us, you know? It makes me wonder what, I mean, I would imagine that this is one of them, but what are the challenges of working in higher

Adenike Webb (46:38.263)
Mmm.

Adenike Webb (46:42.667)
Nah. Yeah.

Adenike Webb (46:49.446)
Absolutely, absolutely.

MVK (47:02.01)
in this in music therapy field or in creative arts therapies field.

Adenike Webb (47:06.007)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (47:09.906)
Well for one, um...

time. Not just from the standpoint of me as an instructor preparing and grading and all those things, but even for the students. So at Drexel, it's a two-year program traditionally. Some people might do three-year, but if you decide to come in and do it for two years, you are in class nonstop from September of 2023 until June of 2025 because you do take classes over the summer.

MVK (47:16.351)
Hahaha

MVK (47:39.317)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (47:44.742)
I mean, granted, they may not be every week, like you're not physically meeting every week and they might end before like August or whatever, but like you got class every quarter. And sometimes there are, it's quite a lot of load, you know, in each term, except for the summer term, maybe it's a little less. So I really feel the pressure of time because we want students to, well, you need to know this, you need to know that, and you have to have this, you have to have that.

MVK (47:53.89)
still.

MVK (48:08.169)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (48:12.478)
And you have to have time out in the field engaging with therapists who are doing the things you want to do. So I think time is one of the challenges.

MVK (48:18.124)
Right?

Adenike Webb (48:26.934)
And as I was talking about, but this idea of taking input from students and reconfiguring our curriculum a little bit in terms of

pulling out the embedded ableism. Cause I know like some of my music therapy colleagues and I've been talking about that. A lot of times music therapy has been embedded in like a medical model, which very frequently looks at disability as a deficiency. And now we have disabled music therapists challenging that. Like, neuro divergence is not a disability. No, I mean, not like a deficiency.

MVK (48:57.314)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (49:06.702)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (49:07.782)
having a physical disability, being deaf, being blind, being whatever it is, is not a deficiency, you know? And we need to shift how we talk about those communities and how we engage with those communities. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to be a guest editor along with one of my colleagues, Dr. Sangeeta Swamy, for an issue of Music Therapy Perspectives, one of our journals, came out December.

MVK (49:13.676)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (49:34.252)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (49:36.014)
It was focusing on social justice and music therapy. And we, one of our aims, and I'm glad we were able to accomplish it, was to highlight the voices of marginalized or minoritized therapists in our field who are doing various kinds of work on research, scholarship, and clinical work. And we had a wonderful array of submissions and what we ended up having. I mean, we couldn't include everybody, but we ended up with, we had...

MVK (49:51.863)
It's weird.

Adenike Webb (50:04.954)
some beautiful, you know, really reflexive, critical and challenging articles about disability. Oh, there was one article by a music therapy educator out of Canada who's, she is blind. And she talks about, I believe the title of her article was performing normal. And looking at how her journey as a musician and into music therapy really kind of, like at the beginning was this attempt

MVK (50:24.599)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (50:35.046)
be normal, what does normal mean and how that kept her from seeing being disabled as a way of being in the world, a valid way of being in the world and what knowledge comes with that, you know, what experiences come with that. And then we had a group of music therapists, I think they were from like Australia and New Zealand who identified as disabled with a variety of disabilities talking about the experiences working with similarly disabled clients.

MVK (50:46.838)
Right? Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (51:05.054)
changing the narrative around disability music therapy. We had articles looking at race and supervision of music therapy students. So it was really, really awesome. I was so grateful to be a part of that. So I feel like...

MVK (51:08.265)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (51:25.018)
Some of the challenges we have partly due with time, partly due with our curriculums, that we don't get to always highlight the things we need to highlight now, the things that are coming up, because the demographic of our society is shifting. And the way people engage and talk about things is shifting. So like, it's more apparent now where people will...

MVK (51:39.756)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (51:52.03)
talk about receiving mental health services, or people will talk about identity and different aspects of identity. So we can't not address that, and how that comes into play in music therapy training and treatment. So that's one of the challenges is like, we need not to throw out entirely the curriculum because it served a purpose, but recognizing that we have to shift to do better.

MVK (52:01.924)
Right.

MVK (52:19.913)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (52:22.13)
to be responsive, you know, to be responsive to what's there. So that's definitely a challenge.

MVK (52:26.654)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (52:29.47)
And then money. Money is always a challenge in higher education. To be able to have all the funds to bring in all the speakers you want or get certain materials and resources. I mean, we do the best we can. Everybody's limited by that, but that's really interesting too.

MVK (52:33.668)
ha ha ha

MVK (52:51.79)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I imagine that within that there's a lot of creativity. Yeah. Yeah, a lot to think about when it comes to how to keep revising curriculum, how to keep learning. Like it's like this active process of learning from

Adenike Webb (53:00.711)
Yes.

Adenike Webb (53:12.667)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (53:20.31)
the students from the community context from oneself and bringing it all together over and over. It's not a static process. It continues to evolve.

Adenike Webb (53:26.814)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (53:33.122)
Right, right. So like one of the challenges, so I've been talking primarily from my role as music therapy faculty, but I'm also clinical education coordinator. So I have to find clinical placements for all the creative arts therapy students in our program. Right? And there are limitations of course. There are only so many dance movement therapists, so many art therapists or whatever. And then there are also other schools in the area providing

MVK (53:43.608)
Right.

Adenike Webb (54:01.67)
these programs, so there's a little bit of competition for sites. So what we were thinking, you know, so then the idea came up, like, can we do any telehealth sorts of placement? Who is offering it? Now, that was the thing during the height of the pandemic, you know, everything went online, but now people are primarily back in person. So there aren't as many options for telehealth training sorts of experiences for students. And

MVK (54:02.614)
Right.

Adenike Webb (54:30.09)
some of our professional associations that approve our programs and determine the standards of education don't really have provision for that right now, you know, or for other ways of incorporating technology into our experience training and so on. So I feel like another challenge is like we want to respond to what the community needs, but we still have to line up with

MVK (54:40.558)
Hmm.

Adenike Webb (54:59.846)
the mandates and standards of our professional associations, and it takes time for them to shift, right? So we are seeing like, if our students have more telehealth exposure, that's gold, you know, but they can't have as much, or they aren't opportunities for that. So that's one of the challenges I find too.

MVK (55:06.139)
Oh boy.

MVK (55:21.586)
Mm hmm. Yeah, what a big shift. I mean, we shifted in one direction, like everything online, school online, you know, which was wild. I mean, I know it was wild for in my experience. It was, well, and then, you know, and then, of course, students doing practicum and internship online and really having to shift thought process around ethics and distance and, you know,

Adenike Webb (55:27.589)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (55:36.102)
Yeah!

MVK (55:50.558)
how we show up in the screen, and of course how our body feels in this position, et cetera, et cetera. And now the shifting back or choices to not shift back is really interesting. And I thank you for sharing your experience around it, because I think that my experience here in New Mexico is that there's a lot of telehealth options. There's a lot of telehealth

Adenike Webb (55:56.508)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

MVK (56:17.914)
practice happening for art therapists in town and counselors. So it's interesting, you know, but I'm in a different part of the country.

Adenike Webb (56:20.305)
Okay.

Adenike Webb (56:26.77)
Right, right. And then there's some interesting limitations of the technology. So with music therapy, if you're doing live music over Zoom, for example, and certain other platforms, it's really challenging. Like I was doing, during the height of the pandemic, I was seeing a group of women in a substance use recovery program. So we went to telehealth and it was either

MVK (56:37.384)
Yes.

Adenike Webb (56:54.974)
10 people in the room, one computer. So for me to see as many people as possible, the computer's on the mantelpiece of the room, but I can only see three people in the screen. And then if somebody off screen says something, I'm like, can you get in the screen and say it again? And then if I'm playing guitar or piano and they wanna sing along, it gets into that funky lag. It's like, okay, if you're gonna sing with me, turn off your mic and just sing along with what you hear.

MVK (57:02.251)
Yeah.

MVK (57:09.613)
Oh gosh.

Adenike Webb (57:24.542)
And so there's that kind of barrier into being with each other in the music that way. Yet on the other hand, if we were using a lot more music production software, which would probably be a little bit easier one on one, with a group, maybe if everybody was on their own individual computer. So that's another question, access. But anyways, access to these resources. But if we hadn't, so like, you know, we could be writing songs, composing songs, using software and so on.

And a lot of people did that. So just rethinking like what are the skills you need to have as a music therapist in this time, given what's been happening in society. And at Drexel we do have a music technology class, but that's just like one class. We're still like focusing on, you need to have the guitar skills and the piano skills, which you do. So it's just like, how does our professional association revise or adapt standards of education

to reflect this need, you know, and what does that mean for our curriculum? So, yeah, like being caught in that space, like we see what the community wants and needs and you're not there yet. So.

MVK (58:28.629)
Yeah!

MVK (58:36.994)
Got you. Again, that evolution, the evolution to meet the needs of where we are in this time. Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. I wonder how things will change.

Adenike Webb (58:40.584)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (58:45.053)
Yeah.

Adenike Webb (58:53.574)
You know, I think they will come around because they'll have to, right? If we plan to be relevant to the society, to the landscape, to the promotion of wellbeing, we're gonna have to, you know? So it's just a matter of, like you said, just a matter of time and advocacy and, you know, investment in the infrastructure to allow for that, so. Yeah.

MVK (59:15.863)
Hmm.

MVK (59:21.683)
Mm-hmm. My fingers are crossed. Well, I would love to end with a little bit of a pivot towards hearing your experience of what emerges when you're working with your students. When everybody is in a flow state, whether it's listening together or creating together and

this new thing emerges. And I'm just wondering, how would you describe that and how it feels and what it sounds like?

Adenike Webb (59:51.824)
Mm-hmm.

Adenike Webb (59:59.39)
Wow, um.

Adenike Webb (01:00:05.214)
Gosh, it's like a...

So I'm thinking to this last class on Tuesday, we did a song parody experience. It was like a mad lib. So I took out certain words from a song and they had to replace them to make it about them. And they opted to go with being kind of goofy, which was fun, you know, because that's all valid. And I enjoyed like seeing the shift in energy in the room and seeing people start to give themselves permission

to be goofy. Cause at first you could tell people like, well, we shouldn't be saying like the, you know, that doesn't make sense. I think the first thing was, we're just a geck, we're just a, looks like a lizard, but it's a gecko, I think was the line they came up with, you know, or something like that. And so people are kind of like, well, what are you gonna, but like once they could realize that, part of creativity is play, Part of creativity is fun, and that's valid in our process, like,

people just loosening up. And so it feels like, I guess like an expansion. There's more room on.

Adenike Webb (01:01:18.078)
I think what I hear and feel is like wind kind of blowing in, you know? And it's like not a harsh wind, but there's energy, there's direction, and it's like refreshing and uplifting at the same time, you know? I go, yeah. So that's what it feels like.

MVK (01:01:22.53)
Hmm

MVK (01:01:36.994)
Hmm. Oh, that was great. Thank you. Yeah, I could, I could experience it as you described it. Yeah, what a joy. Thank you so much for spending time with me. Absolutely. Yeah, I learned a lot and I, there'll be a lot to ponder as.

Adenike Webb (01:01:42.534)
You're welcome.

Adenike Webb (01:01:51.405)
Oh, my pleasure! Thank you for having me!

Adenike Webb (01:02:01.934)
Well, thank you for this time and space. I really enjoyed being able to share these ideas and stuff.

MVK (01:02:07.222)
Absolutely. Okay.