Sean Plunkett Interview: Put it in the Paper

Sean Plunkett, ATR-BC, LCAT I’m a board certified licensed Creative Arts Therapist who earned his masters at Pratt Institute in 2013. I am also a painter, curator, photographer, writer, lecturer, and jack of all trades.  In my practice I emphasize that the goal is not to make beautiful art, but to make something meaningful to the creator. My interest and expertise is in working with what comes up when life when circumstances force us to adjust and grow. I work within the framework of a humanistic, transparent, client-centered perspective, which emphasizes the inherent goodness of all humans. I work to improve client resilience, independence, decision-making & life competence, while gaining self-awareness. 

Transcript

MVK (00:01.782)
Hello, I'm excited to introduce Sean Plunkett, a board certified creative arts therapist in New York, who is a world traveler as well, and has been teaching for seven plus years at Pratt. So happy to have you here.

Sean Plunkett (00:20.743)
Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

MVK (00:23.234)
Yes. So I'd love to start by hearing your thoughts about boundaries and belonging. How do you think about boundaries when it comes to your work as an educator? And where does belonging fit in this work?

Sean Plunkett (00:38.339)
Okay, so I'm not sure like exactly, but the thing that I kind of think about when I think about boundaries, there's of course the clinical boundary, right? The who you are as a therapist and what things you do and not do that are appropriate or not appropriate, but for me, I always think about the boundaries between you as a therapist and you as just a human. So I think what happens a lot of times, or what happens sometimes that I see is that

people kind of create their therapeutic self. And in that self, or sometimes these ideas about what therapists do and not do, that kind of, at least in my case, have kind of stunted my growth. And what I mean by that is that, you know, there are these concepts of therapists being very much like this, or very much like that, or asking particular questions and...

There's a certain point that after you've learned the work that you decide for yourself what things you're gonna do and not do and what things actually work for you and that don't. So I don't like a lot of traditional therapy. It makes people feel weird. You answer a question with a question and it's really frustrating. And when I did that, I didn't feel great either. And I just decided that I was going to create my own boundaries. And so for me,

MVK (01:48.771)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (02:02.931)
when I think about boundaries, I really wanna be as human as possible. So that means that if someone is, if I'm, I make a lot of facial expressions, that's just, I can't hide it. So I will tell people how I'm feeling or what I'm thinking. If I'm in a situation where clinically I'm confused or at a stuck point, where really I'm struggling with what is happening or how someone is presenting or whatever, I try to think about like,

what would the most human response to this thing be? If I wasn't a therapist, if I was like the janitor at a school or something like that, and then go from there. And so I think that when you allow yourself to be as human as possible, that's when you can really connect. And so for me, keeping the boundary that someone else makes isn't very helpful. Of course, there are ethical things you wanna consider.

MVK (02:35.606)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (02:57.895)
But you really want to be as human as possible, because a lot of times your clients just want you to understand what is happening with them. And a lot of times they come with these stories that are really difficult to understand. Like how, you know, you went through this thing, how can you survive in the world, whatever. But if you can put yourself in their place, or you can think about it almost like the least clinical person you know, usually it's somebody's mom or relative or something like that.

MVK (03:11.885)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (03:26.847)
to really understand it helps. And so for me, the belonging part happens there because you realize that even though I have this fancy degree or whatever, I'm kind of in the same place and I'm doing the same thing. I'm just doing it with a different tool. So if I can close the boundary between us so much that I can understand what's happening with you and within you, because I know what's happening within myself, then you can kind of realize that we actually are connected.

MVK (03:27.373)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (03:41.387)
Hmm.

MVK (03:50.263)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (03:56.295)
and education, race, class, all that other stuff is just other stuff that we work with as well, but it doesn't have to get in the way. And I always think about what my life would have been like if different choices were made for me. Like if I grew up in a different country, if I spoke a different language, if I, I don't know, someone introduced drugs to me at a certain age or whatever, whatever. A lot of

MVK (03:56.71)
Yeah.

MVK (04:03.434)
Mm.

Sean Plunkett (04:21.747)
times people think that these things are impossible, but it's just one choice. It's just one situation. And so I can never judge someone for those things. And so for me, boundaries and belonging are interconnected. So if you can allow yourself to just be as unencumbered by boundaries as possible, then of course we all belong, if that makes sense.

MVK (04:45.63)
Mm-hmm. Yes. And I imagine that how you prioritize humanness and authenticity and integrity, I imagine that is a focal point in how you show up as a teacher.

Sean Plunkett (05:03.107)
I try. Hopefully. Yeah. Well, because, well, because sometimes it's a little scary for people. People want the kind of stoic therapist, they want the therapist that can be a blank slate sometimes. I'm not that guy, you know? So I allow people for that choice to find the person that makes sense for them. But if you're going to work with me, you're going to see me mess up. You're going to see me like...

MVK (05:04.61)
Yeah. Would you?

MVK (05:19.913)
No.

Sean Plunkett (05:28.903)
you know, be confused, you're gonna see me think about things in real time, you're gonna see me apologize and make mistakes, and it's important for me to show that stuff because it's the reality of things and the type of therapists that I'm attracted to working with as well are people that have kind of went through stuff. And I think that, I don't think I've ever met a person that hasn't been through something, something difficult, like no matter how privileged, whatever. And so I know that.

MVK (05:38.294)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (05:57.639)
because I've worked with people that have been like millionaires and people that have that have nothing and they have similar problems. Of course not with money of course yeah and I think we all go through these situations at some points in our life and so sometimes I forget that but I think when I do the work I remember that it's just a person and intimidation and all that stuff is these are just tools as well. I don't need to use that.

MVK (06:05.486)
Hmm, humans.

MVK (06:25.22)
Mm. Mm-mm.

Sean Plunkett (06:26.895)
And so humanity and being able to connect with someone on a real level is the goal. And that's it for me.

MVK (06:34.926)
Totally. Yeah, I resonate with that. I think that really that the most the most simple way to support humans to belong is to focus on connecting, right, and to focus on our hearts and our and listening rather than speaking over or speaking to or being the expert. So I really appreciate that. The humility in being human, you know.

Sean Plunkett (06:47.591)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (06:58.852)
Yeah, yeah, very much so.

MVK (07:02.658)
I would love it if you could tell us about your teaching experience. What do you love about it? Where are you now? What do you teach? What are your focuses as a teacher?

Sean Plunkett (07:05.935)
Okay.

Sean Plunkett (07:11.675)
Okay, my teaching experience. Let's see. I got hired in 2016 at Pratt. I was a student there. It was a funny story because we were, as a student, we were interviewing for a new chair and we had to ask a whole bunch of questions and everything. And so after the debrief, the new chair asked about me, like, what class do I teach? And I was a student. And then I think that stuck with them.

MVK (07:14.428)
Yeah.

MVK (07:19.938)
Right.

Sean Plunkett (07:39.611)
So they called me a couple of years after graduating because I don't know whatever impression I made on the person. So that's literally how I got hired. And Pratt's a good place. It's very family-oriented. And so 2016, my first job was as a supervisor, so supervising first-year art therapy graduate students. Right now, I'm teaching two classes, or three classes, actually. I'm teaching personality.

MVK (07:45.303)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (08:08.679)
So that is a class about how your personality will change. And it goes from life to death. So I teach personality one, which goes from zero to five years old. So the entire time is spent on early childhood. And then personality two, which goes from five until death. It's a really, yeah, it's a lot of stuff in it, but it's fascinating because you start to see.

MVK (08:25.654)
Big class.

MVK (08:30.342)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (08:32.755)
how much of you is you and how much of you is age and the things that we go through just as we develop as adults. So it's really interesting. I also teach group therapy, one and two, I co-teach with that. And so that is the experiential process of being in a group, which is sometimes wild and sometimes scary and sometimes a lot, but you will definitely know something emotionally after that class. I'll leave it at that.

MVK (08:41.601)
Hmm.

MVK (08:53.004)
Yes.

MVK (09:00.694)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (09:01.755)
What I like about teaching is, I don't know, I think that there are two things that really stand out to me. I absolutely love the moment where you can almost physically see an idea just go into someone's head, and then they just are like, oh, I've never thought about that before. I've never thought about it that way before.

MVK (09:20.166)
Mmm

Sean Plunkett (09:27.139)
and that moment where like realities collapse and then you literally see them going off into outer space because of some new concept that was explained to them in a way that makes sense. I love that moment. That's an amazing moment. You know? The other moment that really allows me to kind of be like, who I really like this is, I think our ideas of teachers are sometimes,

MVK (09:36.64)
Yes.

MVK (09:41.672)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (09:53.907)
thought of as someone with knowledge imparting knowledge on someone else. And I think that's true, but I also think that it's also not true because access to information is probably the highest it's ever been right now. So the way that I think about teaching is not that I have the knowledge and you don't. My role as a teacher is to be able to deliver the knowledge to you so that you can think it's easy. So it's taking a very complicated idea.

digesting it and my job is to kind of like digest it enough where I can say it to you in one or two sentences where you'll get it and I say that just because I feel like especially in the psychological realm. You read an article, it's like 15 pages long. What do you say? What is the point of it? You know what I mean? And so I find teaching allows me to just say that simple idea.

MVK (10:27.576)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (10:49.263)
And then that's where the stuff goes because, you know, you're smart. You have ideas of your own. Um, let's get to the idea and then you do the work. But as a teacher, my job is a translator. That's all that I think that I do. Um, you can find the information online anywhere. Um, but there is something special about being able to take an idea and just translated to someone so that they think, oh, that's such a simple concept, you know?

Because anything simple is actually not, you know what I mean? But a person can do that and just let you have that confidence to take that idea and take ownership. Because I really believe that the people that push ideas are people that are new in the field. It's a new idea to them. So they look at it differently than people that are older in the field. So I think those are the people that create magic. And those are the people that really challenge ideas. So I want to thank you.

MVK (11:17.131)
Mmm.

MVK (11:30.498)
Mm.

Hmm

MVK (11:37.062)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (11:44.787)
them to have it as early as possible so they can be like, hey, that doesn't make any sense. And then if it doesn't make sense, then it's your goal to create something new. If that, you know, that's what I think about teaching.

MVK (11:57.792)
Mm-hmm. So I hear in what you're saying that as a teacher in the creative arts field, you're translating, you're summarizing, you're bridging concepts. And I'm curious, with that, what are some other important agenda pieces of who you are as an educator or what your teaching frame is?

Sean Plunkett (12:10.29)
Mm.

Sean Plunkett (12:19.719)
Hmm.

MVK (12:24.898)
What's important here around your perspective as the holder of the translation? Ha ha ha.

Sean Plunkett (12:30.671)
Beholder. I like that. Let's see. I think I have really simple frameworks. I really value multiculturalism because in the therapeutic realm, we're so curious about so many things, but when it comes to rage, when it comes to culture, we kind of get scared. And we're so afraid and we're so careful that sometimes there isn't enough exploration.

MVK (12:58.774)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (12:59.151)
I want to kind of allow for that exploration to happen through multiculturalism. I want that to be integrated within all of the work because it's not separate than anything. It's just a part of it and multiculturalism in its most basic is like I'm in this body and you're in that body. How can we meet someplace in between? So I can see a little bit of what comes through your eyes and you can see a little bit that comes through my eyes.

MVK (13:24.811)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (13:29.127)
we have different considerations, I may not have any idea what it's like to be a woman, you know, on a real felt level in space. And so the whole point is to be able to kind of allow for that bridge so that I can start considering things not only from my space and my body. So I can be like, oh, I need to think about that too, because there are a lot of people that don't inhabit something that looks like mine.

That also means that even if someone fits the same category as me, I still can't assume that I know, you know, I can think things, I can believe things, but I don't really know. So when I think about it, multiculturalism is really important to integrate it into everything. I think the other is I really like ideas of egalitarianism, that the playing field is level because I think hierarchy is an illusion. And I find that a lot of times people that

MVK (14:10.628)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (14:25.971)
get to certain places, feel as if they have to hold something or keep something. And a lot of times it's difficult to get into these places of authority. But once you get there, you're like, wait a second, they're just making it up just like me. You know what I mean? And I want people to really, I just, I think it's real. I want people to know that. Cause I think that it's important that we realize that we can all do things that we just never

MVK (14:29.558)
Hmm

MVK (14:43.375)
Hahaha

MVK (14:47.245)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (14:53.563)
We could, we just need access. That's it, it's just access. Because sometimes people are really smart, really smart, and they're awful teachers. And sometimes people, you know, it may take a longer time for them to get a concept, but then they say something that's absolutely brilliant. And I want more people to realize they have the power to do that because they do. They do, a lot of times people are just confident and they can get into places super high. You're like, oh my God, that person must be this and that.

MVK (14:55.031)
Mmm.

MVK (14:58.318)
True.

Sean Plunkett (15:22.951)
you meet them and you're like, oh, not really. They're just, they just believe in themselves. So if I can do that, that helps. And I think the third part is, I don't even wanna say it like this, but like self responsibility. What that means is like, your responsibility to explore yourself, even when it's scary. Your responsibility to rest when you need to. Your responsibility to kind of do the things that you tell other people to do.

MVK (15:53.518)
Right.

Sean Plunkett (15:53.723)
those are all really simple but they're all really difficult. So I try to do that I don't think I accomplish those things all the time but I use that in my work because I think that those are things that were frustrating to me when I was a student and as anyone at any point and so I want to try to do that and I realize why people don't do it because it's hard it's really hard yeah like doing the thing that you say to other people you're like damn.

MVK (15:58.286)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (16:12.035)
Mmm.

MVK (16:17.966)
It's hard.

Sean Plunkett (16:22.963)
I meant that for you, not me. So... I know. Yeah.

MVK (16:26.45)
Wait a minute. Who am I speaking to? Yeah. I appreciate your perspective around, you know, what your frame is. That last part around self-responsibility feels really similar to what you were talking about around boundaries, having internal boundaries to be able to make choices around interaction, around rest, around...

Sean Plunkett (16:43.711)
Hmm.

MVK (16:52.858)
Yeah, the yeses and the nos as a human, and then also as a student, as a teacher, and as a clinician. Yeah, that feels really important for so many reasons, right? And it also feels, at least, you know, when I'm thinking about it in this moment, I think it's also really important in terms of interrupting bias and being able to.

Sean Plunkett (17:00.173)
Mm hmm. Yeah, very much so.

Sean Plunkett (17:14.918)
Right.

MVK (17:16.814)
have the capacity to expand one's perspective, to include other people's perspectives, to, you know, limit, just limit judgment. The more we can have that internal space and be responsible inside of ourselves, I believe the more we can be responsible interpersonally.

Sean Plunkett (17:27.891)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (17:37.551)
Yeah, I agree with that very much so. Yeah, interpersonal responsibility.

MVK (17:39.426)
You know, yeah. And I'm curious, yeah, and what is that? Like, what is that as a teacher? What are our responsibilities as educators interpersonally, whether it's like with individual students in the group, with the whole group itself, you know? And then there's like all of these other layers in higher ed around where our responsibilities lie as educators. What do you think about that?

Sean Plunkett (17:51.24)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (18:05.639)
Yeah, that's a hard one. That's a hard one. I think it's, how can I say it? I think that the responsibilities when it comes to structures, especially like academic structures, the stuff that happens behind closed doors is transparency. It is saying, hey, I believe in this.

MVK (18:26.836)
Mm.

Sean Plunkett (18:31.707)
in front of people's faces and then behind closed doors doing the same thing. It's hard, it's hard because you actually find out why things behind closed doors are behind closed doors. Oh, there's another reason why and I can't tell the students this and I can't tell the students that. And you're like, oh, there's another layer to this. And so in that moment, you're like, hmm, I understand why the administrators do this now and I understand why the students want this and I understand what I want.

MVK (18:50.242)
You're right.

Sean Plunkett (19:01.051)
And now that I have this knowledge and I can't share it with that party and I can't share it with this party. Where do I stand? Right. And if I do change, am I going to tell the people that I, you know, that the idea that I had before, do I tell them that it changed? Can I handle that? Do I do that? And so I think that's the real difficult part. And I don't want to frame it as if like just do the right thing because that's something that is a really great idea. But a lot of times it's, it's a lot.

MVK (19:05.366)
Right? Yeah.

MVK (19:15.083)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (19:30.267)
more cloudy than you would think. And so allowing yourself to really think that through and come to like a decision that feels right enough is I think our responsibility as educators because sometimes you do have to be the bad guy on either side. Sometimes someone is disappointed in you for something that is completely out of your hands but you can't tell them that for many different reasons.

MVK (19:33.409)
Hmm

MVK (19:48.091)
Mm.

MVK (19:56.797)
true.

Sean Plunkett (19:58.907)
And then sometimes you just mess up. Sometimes you completely mess up or you miss construe something. And yeah, and I think it's really complicated. But I think with saying all of that, I think that...

MVK (20:07.541)
Mm.

Sean Plunkett (20:13.311)
you allowing yourself to learn from it too is the biggest part. A lot of times you will be presented with the same things over and over again in just different forms. You can identify the form and be like, hey, last time I said I was gonna do this, but I didn't do it. Or I said I was gonna do this, but I did that. Then what can you learn from that? So you can navigate this a little differently. Let's see, I'm in a funny spot because I work in academia.

MVK (20:34.562)
Mm.

Sean Plunkett (20:42.119)
but I travel a lot, so I'm usually not physically there. So some things I don't know at all. And when I get there and I see the lived experience, I'm like, oh wow, that was not what I thought, you know? So I think that's a complicated way of answering your question, I think. So, yeah.

MVK (20:47.293)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (20:54.508)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (21:01.294)
Oh, I appreciate. And that last part too, I think, you know, when we're talking about different perspectives and the different perspectives of an educator who is not on campus, right? So, you know, since the pandemic, that is definitely so much more common in higher ed where educators are not at all in the state that the school is in, or are, you know, part-time in the state and part-time elsewhere.

Sean Plunkett (21:18.17)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (21:24.846)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (21:28.967)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (21:30.274)
And I think that it's a really interesting new way of creating community. And I'm curious what your experience is working on campus versus working online, right? There's benefits to both ways. What have you noticed?

Sean Plunkett (21:37.286)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (21:45.332)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (21:49.011)
Yeah. Well, I'm in a really good place. So I work at Pratt and there. I've worked in the, I used to live in Brooklyn and I worked on campus there. But now I'm doing the low residency program. So half of it is online. So in March, we do just like a 10 day tsunami of classes online. And then in the summer, we do in person. So I actually experience both during the year.

Sean Plunkett (22:21.024)
It's interesting, it's hard to connect sometimes because you need to see someone, you need to feel their energy, you need to kind of be around them to just see and understand them in a different way. And so when you're online, it's all about creating community in the here and now while we're all on Zoom and we're all feeling this way or that way, and then trying to kind of create some sort of space outside of that.

MVK (22:28.993)
Yeah.

MVK (22:40.743)
Mmm.

Sean Plunkett (22:48.083)
where people can just talk without an agenda, which is kind of hard. I think in person, and I think very specifically from the pandemic on, it's weird being in person. So seeing someone for the first time that you've actually known for a year or so is kind of confronting. And so it's just really different when it becomes in person and that people...

MVK (23:10.667)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (23:18.535)
may feel different than you expected. And also just the physicality of it. You get to be with art materials and share art materials together. And I think that creates a different space that I think just feels different, but I think logistically, the other part about being online is that you don't have as much support. You figure things out on your own. While being in person, you automatically will connect to people and try to work.

with them. And I think that happens serendipitously, and it changes the work.

MVK (23:55.054)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so this both and place and it sounds like you like both ways of teaching. Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (24:03.871)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely like online just because I like to travel. And I just like to do work wherever I need to. But if I'm in a space and a place for a long enough time, in person is really fun because you can shift really quickly and random things can happen that really can change or make things so much better. Like a one second conversation in the hallway before class or.

MVK (24:08.651)
Mm-hmm

Sean Plunkett (24:31.447)
on a break can really shift things where online that doesn't happen. Like, it's harder.

MVK (24:36.334)
Hmm, that's such a good point. So relationally, there are different opportunities to be human together.

Sean Plunkett (24:43.791)
100%, 100%.

MVK (24:46.218)
I'm curious, what do you look like as an educator? Like, what do you do with your body? How do you, I mean, how do you show up? How do you use your body as an educator?

Sean Plunkett (24:57.811)
Hmm. That's an interesting question. I like that. Well, I'm thinking of the group therapy class. I teach it with a dance therapist. So I'm an art therapist, so I'm awkward as hell. So with the dance therapy stuff, we actually use our bodies in different ways. So I try to be semi-casual most times, like just wear regular clothes, not super formal. Just...

MVK (25:03.083)
Ha ha

MVK (25:23.702)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (25:24.275)
But I like a little bit of formality because it makes me feel safe. But I try to allow things to pass through me. That's my ongoing lesson. I like to hold onto things and emotions and stuff. So I'm perpetually practicing letting emotions pass through me. Yeah. And also, I pick stuff up a lot of times from people. I think everyone does.

And so I really try to embody the work. So when we do dance therapy exercises in particular, I used to not do them because of my awkwardness, but now I'm just like, hey, if you're gonna be awkward, then I'm gonna be awkward. So I just do it, you know what I mean? I don't like standing in front of a classroom lecturing. That's not true, I do like that. I do like that.

MVK (26:09.553)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (26:18.887)
but I don't like it being like from an authority place, even though I am technically an authority. So I like to move around. I like to kind of allow our bodies to do a lot of the work because it's doing stuff anyway, but just giving that permission. So work on the floor, work outside is really good. I like going outside a lot because it kind of interrupts these ideas of student teacher. And then implicitly within that is

MVK (26:22.926)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

MVK (26:36.898)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (26:48.327)
What happens a lot of times with therapy is that since you're an authority figure, ooh, I can't tell you that. Ooh, I'm going to be embarrassed. Ooh, you know? And so we have to get comfortable with rolling around on the floor. That's what your client wants to do, which I've done. Or I used to work in an autism clinic, and so doing the exact things that clients are doing. But also, sometimes when someone confuses you,

MVK (27:04.449)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (27:16.991)
move like them. You will be like, I don't know how they move. You know, I don't know. And then you just say, just try it. And you do. And your body does it. And then something happens in the air. And you're like, oh my God, this person feels so heavy in their shoulders. This just feels stressful. Oh my God. I wouldn't like to be in this person's body. And then you learn something so quick that you would have never learned that way. And so I really try to incorporate movement into the art

MVK (27:19.325)
Yes.

MVK (27:38.97)
Hmm.

MVK (27:43.159)
Yes.

Sean Plunkett (27:46.031)
making just because it's such a good teacher and I've learned from that even though I was resistant as an art therapist but now I'm like oh yeah that makes sense it makes I know why this person is always like this because yeah it shows up

MVK (27:47.286)
I love that.

MVK (27:53.111)
Mm.

MVK (28:02.186)
Yes, I love that. And what I also hear you saying is that part of the way that you have shown up as an educator is by being vulnerable. Like, right? Like through, whether it's some movement exercises and in the beginning felt uncomfortable and you were resistant to, or being honest about mistakes you've had that you've made. It sounds like vulnerability is a really important.

Sean Plunkett (28:17.592)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (28:26.193)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (28:32.394)
way to connect, a really important human way to be, how would you define that?

Sean Plunkett (28:36.379)
Yeah. No, I think that's it. I think it's true because I think that people, I know that people are afraid of vulnerability. I am too, you know? And I also think about my body as a black male. People expect for me to be a certain way. So when I express vulnerability, it actually scares people sometimes. Yeah, it definitely does. But it all...

MVK (28:41.631)
Yeah.

MVK (28:52.233)
Yeah.

MVK (29:02.272)
Is that right?

Okay.

Sean Plunkett (29:06.423)
after that, it gives them permission to say the thing that they may have been too afraid to say because just because I just put it out there in the beginning, hey, I just started a group like a couple of weeks ago and I was nervous as hell. So the first thing I said when I came in, I was like, hey, I'm nervous as hell. You know what I mean? And it just released for me that energy. And some people felt good about it. Some people felt bad about it.

MVK (29:30.815)
Mm. Yes.

Sean Plunkett (29:34.483)
But after that, so many people were like, oh my God, I felt this, I felt that, I felt this. And so sometimes as a therapist, you just have to kind of go first and be like, yo, this is just what I'm feeling. I've learned this the hard way because my face says everything. And so instead of pretending like, no, I'm not feeling this, I just say it now. Because the thing is that it's real, it's true, it's happening. I can lie to you, but why? You know what I mean? So I'll just say what's happening.

MVK (29:45.794)
Hmm.

MVK (29:53.923)
So yeah.

MVK (29:59.851)
Right.

Sean Plunkett (30:01.235)
give you permission and it also gives me permission to kind of like bring it down because I do think the genius of everyone, of many people is in the spontaneities and their humanity. So we can kind of just exist with each other in the simplest way and I think that then creates some really nice energy but I think this top down energy, I just don't like it so much. And so I found that the bottom up works better.

MVK (30:08.284)
us.

MVK (30:15.202)
Hmm.

MVK (30:20.578)
No.

MVK (30:26.603)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (30:31.307)
not bottom, you know what I mean? But like doing it from a different angle, from this authority angle, this doesn't work for me so much. But I think like doing it from like, we are both human and building from there. And the only thing that is different than you and me is just experience and knowledge and the knowledge you can find. And experience as a therapist, yeah, you can gain, right? And like.

MVK (30:32.83)
Mm. I do. It, yeah.

MVK (30:50.039)
Hmm.

can gain.

Sean Plunkett (30:56.363)
I have a cheat code because I get to experience so many different people really intimately. So sometimes I just know stuff just because I've talked to a person that is like this and so I can hear what they say and be like, damn, that's profound and share it with someone else. That's the only thing that I really think I have big access to that other people may not. And so my responsibility is to share it through the vulnerability.

MVK (31:10.953)
Mmm.

MVK (31:16.802)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (31:21.966)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I also hear you saying that trust gets built. When you're vulnerable, it helps reduce the power dynamic. And then the students in the space, whether they like your vulnerability or not, it opens up like, oh, well, if he is open and vulnerable about this, I guess maybe I'm allowed to as well, like you were saying with permission. Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (31:33.242)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (31:47.685)
Yeah, 100%. I've seen it happen and it's really nice. It's really great. Yeah.

MVK (31:51.482)
Yeah, agreed. And I, you know, I think one of the things that's so important to hold as an educator, of course, is the humanness of our students. And that our students come into our courses with all kinds of experiences and both present and past heartache and heartbreak, like, whether it's world events, whether it's, you know,

Sean Plunkett (32:00.934)
Mm.

Sean Plunkett (32:12.299)
Hmm.

MVK (32:17.89)
breakups or fights with folks or some, you know, internal conflict that is really big. Our students are so complex in their experience and I'm just, I'm curious what, what does heartache and heartbreak look like in your classrooms? How does it show up? How do you hold it?

Sean Plunkett (32:26.94)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (32:39.8)
Yeah, that's such a good question. It really made me think, you know, because I think it's a really profound way of thinking of just humanity, that people go through stuff, right? And so I think a lot of heartbreak and heartache is from ideals that...

MVK (32:43.327)
Yeah.

MVK (32:52.195)
Mm, yeah.

Sean Plunkett (32:59.815)
don't show up right now. Oh my God, I'm 32, I'm 42, I'm 52, I was supposed to be like this, and my life was supposed to be like this, but it's like this. And I thought this person was gonna be, was gonna be, you know, the person I was gonna be with forever. And then I found out, you know, and so I think a lot of heartbreak is in, like the idealization of something, which I don't think there's anything wrong with at all, but I do think that reality and fantasy sometimes don't

MVK (33:15.324)
Yeah.

MVK (33:24.023)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (33:28.755)
actually meet ever and that's really hard. So when you're training to be a therapist and you're gonna be like, this is amazing, I'm just gonna impart knowledge and have breakthroughs and all this stuff and then you go and then you go into your first job and the clients are looking at you like, get the hell out of here, who are you? I don't want to talk to you and then you're like, wait a sec, I'm the therapist, what's like? And like you just realize all these things, it's really difficult, it's actually heartbreaking.

MVK (33:32.11)
Mm, mm, mm.

Sean Plunkett (33:58.375)
on top of that romantic love and even kind of the heartbreak that comes with parenthood and things that happen and don't happen, you know? I think they're all the same but I think it's all something that it's kind of like when you don't want to show someone something but they can but they know they're like are you okay and you're like everything's fine and you're like

Are you sure? So you're like, everything is great. And you ask the third time, it's like, oh my God. I think that in classes it shows up because that boundary between my therapeutic self, the self that I wanna show, and the stuff that I'm dealing with on the inside, sometimes the space between it gets so small that scares people. And so you can save face and pretend like it's not there. You can also...

MVK (34:32.669)
Mmm.

MVK (34:38.338)
Hmm.

MVK (34:48.462)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (34:55.955)
have your mind protect you and not even realize that it's there. And then when it does crack, that's when I think despair can happen, but I think despair can also form joy. Because it's a polarity, and I think that if you kind of push anything to its extreme opposite, it starts taking on the other characteristics. So once you hit rock bottom, then you're like, holy crap, maybe I can learn something from this.

MVK (35:00.428)
Right.

Sean Plunkett (35:25.459)
brings you up a little bit. But when you lose that ideal, then you're like, hmm, maybe I need to be a little more realistic that maybe this other person is a person. They're gonna disappoint me. You know what I mean? And so I think that when you go all the way down, hopefully, you can hit that and come up. And I think at certain points in our lives, we kind of do break and we kind of do have to break in order to get to the next level or stage. It's...

MVK (35:26.933)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (35:36.787)
Yeah.

MVK (35:44.866)
Hmm.

MVK (35:50.155)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (35:54.707)
very painful, learning is very painful, becoming older is very painful, coming to these new realizations are really painful, but you survive and you go on to the next day and you do it imperfectly and you realize that, you know, five, six years on the line, wow, that really rocked my world, but I'm okay. And I hope that you're okay. And maybe you're not, you know what I mean? But just the realization

MVK (36:02.414)
can be.

MVK (36:06.688)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (36:18.711)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (36:23.699)
that ideas and concepts and beliefs don't always have to be your breaking point. Sometimes you just need a break and sometimes that's okay. So allowing yourself to fall down and to have your heart broken and again, with the vulnerability allows for so much growth. The only difference is now you're not in control. And that's the scary part. But I think when you're a little out of control, I think you allow for

MVK (36:26.823)
Mm.

MVK (36:32.898)
Hmm.

MVK (36:48.679)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (36:52.627)
things outside to come in that you didn't expect. Most times I found that they're actually really beautiful. That's what I found.

MVK (36:55.731)
Hmm.

MVK (37:00.226)
Yeah, yeah, I feel that I definitely have experienced deep heartache and heartbreak personally and then just grown tremendously because of it. It's amazing how pain, what can emerge from pain, basically. And, you know, what I'm thinking about or what I've been thinking about while you were talking about heartache and heartbreak and what it can look like in the classroom

Sean Plunkett (37:03.678)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (37:16.999)
Yeah, yeah.

MVK (37:28.75)
I'm thinking about humility, and then I'm also thinking about gatekeeping. So, you know, how does the way that we manage as humans, our conflicts and our heartache and our heartbreak, how can that, I mean, I think maybe the goal is to move towards humility from heartache and heartbreak mistakes.

Sean Plunkett (37:31.987)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Sean Plunkett (37:53.523)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (37:54.966)
to find a place of like, oh, okay, well, yeah, this sucked, or I made this huge mistake and I'm not perfect and I'm gonna learn from this and I am learning from it. And I still love myself and I still love you and that's what we're doing, right? But then there's this other place of stuckness where maybe humility is harder to attain or perhaps the heartache or the heartbreak or the conflict is so massive.

Sean Plunkett (38:04.755)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (38:24.322)
that as an educator, there's this place of, can this student hold their stuff and also be present for future clients, right? Because that, even though that term gatekeeping is wrought with institutional racism and white supremacy and many isms, it also, I mean, maybe there's a better word, maybe you have a better word, I don't know. But it's-

Sean Plunkett (38:37.851)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (38:45.096)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (38:53.279)
Hmm.

MVK (38:54.286)
also an important responsibility of educators in therapeutic fields.

Sean Plunkett (38:59.775)
Yeah, yeah, very much so. I'm thinking specifically of just one thing that's really shifted within me within the last couple of years, where I really, I think before, I kind of believed very much that when you get into school and you're doing the work, you actually have to be ready for it. And I think to a level you do, right? I think you have to be ready to take on other people's stuff. I think you gotta be ready to...

MVK (39:09.04)
Okay.

MVK (39:20.982)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (39:27.687)
work with people and all that type of stuff. But I realized when just working with students after a while of just being like, hey, this is an issue and I see it coming up or are you in therapy? Are you doing this? Are you doing that? And then I realized more and more that sometimes the work is pausing. So maybe you as a student can't deal with this really difficult thing while you're in grad school because grad school is really stressful.

MVK (39:47.63)
Mmm.

MVK (39:57.387)
through.

Sean Plunkett (39:58.203)
But do I, as the educator, have faith and know that you will deal with it afterwards? That you will delve into this afterwards? And that's really for me the question. Some people are just going to completely avoid this topic or this subject, especially when it's so present in the room where it's like, hey, I don't know if you can work with clients. Every time I talk to you, you bring up this thing. Are you bringing up, you bring this up with your clients because it, because you know they're

MVK (40:08.61)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (40:25.331)
helping you, you're supposed to be the other, you know? And so if it interferes like that, and there's that type of resistance, then I think that there's space for the educator to be like, hey, I don't know if you're ready, right? Because you may actually be, I'm tired of hearing stories of like, oh, my therapist disclosed this to me. And then little by little, I ended up talking only about the therapist problems. And then I'm like, yuck, you know what I mean?

MVK (40:28.291)
Right.

MVK (40:33.282)
Hmm.

MVK (40:40.011)
Yeah.

MVK (40:53.194)
Mm-mm. So yuck. Me too.

Sean Plunkett (40:54.479)
I've heard that too many times, and it's like, I understand it's like a slippery slope and everything, and I totally understand it, but that's not healthy. I'm not gonna pay you to hear about your problems. You know what I mean? You might as well do like, yeah, but I've heard it too many times. So if it interferes with the work directly, if you can't put it away, then I think that's something that really we have to kind of talk about, and that leads to like really difficult situations where it's like, hey, maybe you should take a break.

MVK (41:07.266)
That's not what we're doing here.

Sean Plunkett (41:24.499)
maybe you should defer for a year. Maybe instead of it being an online class, I think you need to be in person because maybe you need to hear it from your peers. But I think for other people, I've learned that some people just actually work, just need time afterwards to deal with this thing. But if they can put it away, if they can work with it while in school, I'm all for it. But the promise is that you will work through it. So.

MVK (41:27.01)
Hmm.

MVK (41:40.503)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (41:51.143)
When it comes to gatekeeping, I have this idea in my head that I'm this person that's gonna open the gate and just let everybody in. You know what I mean? Because I kind of don't believe in gatekeeping in a lot of different ways. I don't like having to write essays to get a grant. Why? Just give a grant. You know what I mean? I mean, a lot of these things, I'm just like, why are we doing this? We're making extra work.

MVK (41:51.916)
Yeah.

MVK (42:02.486)
Yeah.

Okay.

MVK (42:14.699)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (42:19.711)
Can we make this a little more simple? But I wanna also notice what has happened since the pandemic and since social media has happened where everyone has an opinion. Half of the people have opinions. I was like, you didn't do any research. You made this whole show over this thing, but you actually don't know what you're talking about. And so I really do struggle with that.

MVK (42:21.847)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (42:46.791)
Because it's just like, wow, the responsibilities on the person to research and to know what they're talking about. And then we can go from there. But I've seen so many times when I was like, oh my god, you know, you're talking about this topic, but that's the wrong definition. And then I'm like, oh my god, I wish somebody would have vetted them. And I was like, that's gatekeeping, ta-da. So I'm not, I don't know. So to make it short, I don't really know where I am with that, I always try to make.

MVK (43:12.447)
No.

Sean Plunkett (43:13.907)
things as transparent as possible so that I can let as many people in as possible. So like if I'm doing a lecture, guess what? One of my students is going to help me and I'm going to put their name on the slides and then I'm going to help them create their own lecture, you know what I mean? Because we want to pull people in. But I think sometimes when it's completely unrestrained, then the opposite happens where sometimes even dangerous ideas form.

MVK (43:25.954)
Hmm.

MVK (43:30.846)
Yeah.

MVK (43:39.875)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (43:40.403)
I saw this one little clip on Instagram. It's a silly example, but somebody was talking about a sensitive topic, and they started to explain the reasons behind the topic, but they hit on every single, what's the word? You know, like when they have these stereotypes about certain groups or whatever, and the arguments become the same.

MVK (44:02.71)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (44:04.859)
Like, you know, if you don't like it, you should go back to your own country, you know, this type of thing. But it goes into this very particular structure that if you know this structure, like a lot of racism or antisemitism will fit into these structures. And sometimes the person won't even realize it. And so this guy was doing it and I was like, oh my God, you don't realize that like all of your ideas fit into this very particular structure. And so sometimes I think that becomes really.

MVK (44:09.486)
Mm-hmm

MVK (44:12.662)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (44:18.761)
No.

Sean Plunkett (44:32.979)
dangerous because I don't think he actually knew that it's kind of like where Like the brain will go usually So for example when you think about when the term white White privilege comes up people always talk about like oh my gosh Well, I was white, but I wasn't privileged and it's like that's not what the word means. It means that you nothing holds you back because of whiteness . And so sometimes the definition and what's actually being the conversation is different

MVK (44:45.998)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (44:59.894)
Mmm.

Sean Plunkett (45:02.787)
And so sometimes that's where it's like, oh, okay, a little gatekeeping can help, if that makes sense. I'm still struggling with that idea. I don't have a fully formed thought yet, but that's kind of where I am with it right now.

MVK (45:02.986)
Got you.

MVK (45:08.29)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (45:13.257)
Yeah.

Yeah, it sounds like some of the work too is redirecting how to support folks in witnessing where their perspective is coming from and what perhaps is missing. I mean, I think that also comes from the experience of being in the field and being an educator, and then of course one's own background.

Sean Plunkett (45:30.865)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (45:41.95)
And that's part of like what we bring as educators. We have this, we have all of this and here we are. And this is what we have to offer it. And it...

MVK (45:55.686)
it frames how we interact with students too, and how we interpret what they bring as well. And I, you know, I wonder, you know, I know that you're teaching a group dynamics class, right? Or a group counseling class. And I would imagine, tell me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that conflict sometimes comes up in, okay, right, yeah. So sometimes, often, there's some...

Sean Plunkett (46:16.991)
Well, sometimes. Well.

MVK (46:24.694)
conflictual conversation or feelings or, you know, body language that feels tense. And, you know, what does that look like in your classroom? What are the benefits of conflict? And then what, again, what emerges? What emerges from conflict?

Sean Plunkett (46:30.077)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (46:40.826)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (46:46.152)
Okay, well, Pratt is a really unique place where it's kind of weird. You kind of it's a completely experiential. So I mean, like, you will go through emotions right in class, people crying class, but also the opposite will happen where like, you can literally go up to any student be like, "hey, what's

MVK (46:49.973)
Okay.

MVK (47:00.991)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (47:08.519)
What's Amy's favorite color?" And they'll know. So they really do this in class and you really get to know people. So of course you will always get to know people and just be like, oh, I don't like that. Why did you do that? Why did you say that? And it becomes very nuanced and sometimes even difficult to understand. But what conflict looks like is, could be direct conflict. I don't like what you said, I don't like what you did.

MVK (47:11.778)
Wow.

MVK (47:20.226)
Hmm

MVK (47:28.831)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (47:37.611)
Anger, yelling, crying, all of that stuff is totally fine within At at Pratt like in class you can be like you're an effing idiot. I don't like you, but yes, you can you can you can but we will ask why. And then oh because they're like this. Why does that okay? So people like this? Why do people like this Bobby? You just go down you go down you go down and some and a lot of times it comes back to something that

MVK (47:44.31)
Yeah.

Oh, okay. Oh.

MVK (47:52.713)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (48:01.89)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (48:05.655)
either is about the self or someone that they have experienced, right? And so you practice conflict. I hate conflict. I absolutely hate it. But the thing is that you learn so much from it because some place within the idea of conflict is the idea that if I say this to this person, then can they handle it or can I handle it? No?

MVK (48:10.238)
Right, of course.

MVK (48:33.215)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (48:34.803)
Do I have an expectation that this person will reject or deflect or just do the wrong thing? Or is there some place in me that's like, oh, I hope that they can raise up or they can do something that's different than I expected. And that little thing is really, really scary. And I think that that's the core of what conflict is. Can they handle it or can I handle when they push back? And so that's always the question. So.

I encourage students to say what they need to say to each other, also to me. And then when they say it, I'm like, oh damn, that hurt, oh my gosh. But it teaches me really clear lessons about what's okay and what's not. And if you push conflict far enough, it becomes violence. And so that is destructive. But

MVK (49:08.418)
Yeah.

MVK (49:12.841)
Yeah.

MVK (49:16.738)
Hmm.

MVK (49:19.831)
Hmm

MVK (49:24.267)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (49:27.143)
When that happens, not in class. I've never seen that. That's a little too far. But at sites, sometimes that does happen. And I think about violence as a language. It is very clear. Don't do this. Don't say that. You know what I mean? It's very, very clear. So the point is, in those spaces, before it gets to violence, you want people to use their words. But if someone doesn't feel heard, if someone doesn't feel respected,

MVK (49:38.28)
Mmm.

MVK (49:43.879)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (49:56.499)
that is the language that it turns into, and it becomes very clear, yes or no, that's okay and that's not okay. And so we try to help people not get to that point, but being able to say directly to someone, I don't like that, this bothered me, or you annoy me, or whatever, opens things up for something else. And I think the thing else that it opens up is, can this person meet me?

MVK (50:01.088)
Yeah.

MVK (50:16.801)
Yeah.

MVK (50:20.355)
Mm.

MVK (50:24.394)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (50:24.787)
Or can I reevaluate something that I said and maybe I'm the one in the wrong? And that hurts. It's also scary. And it's also, what's the word, unnerving. Because like you don't know where you stand, but with conflict, by the end of that conflict, you will know where you stand. And sometimes we don't want to find out.

MVK (50:35.787)
Yeah.

MVK (50:46.19)
Hmm. Wow. So in all of that, I'm hearing the direct communication. So practicing communicating directly to a peer and speaking one's truth, whether or not that truth is going to stay as it is, right? We may find that once we open the door to this truth, it may actually change, right? Similar to what you were saying before about coming into class and saying, I'm nervous.

Sean Plunkett (50:59.846)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (51:04.071)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (51:10.291)
Yeah.

MVK (51:14.634)
And then that actually relieves some of the tension. And then it offers an opportunity for, it sounds like some attachment wounds to be healed. So I'm telling you that what you did really bothered me. Can you handle this? Can you hear me? And if you can, oh my gosh, maybe I can trust you again. And this practice of trust in the group work sounds just really important.

Sean Plunkett (51:15.)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (51:26.278)
Yeah

Sean Plunkett (51:32.72)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (51:37.703)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (51:42.035)
Yeah. And also, like, let's also keep it real. Sometimes it's like, oh, now I know I can't trust you. And I think that's, you know, and I think that's real too. Like, you really did or said or really believed this. So I just know how far I can go with you. And I think that's just as valuable because we want everything to be pretty and loving and all that type of stuff. But we're humans, this is the world. And that's just not how it always works. So...

MVK (51:50.529)
Hmm

MVK (51:53.998)
Absolutely.

MVK (52:01.735)
Absolutely.

MVK (52:06.19)
It's not.

Sean Plunkett (52:09.107)
to be able to handle that and just sit next to you, even though I'm like, oh my God, I don't like this person, and they know it now, is also still valuable.

MVK (52:09.314)
true story.

Mm.

MVK (52:19.814)
Absolutely being able to sit next to somebody that you can't trust necessarily with your heart, but you can trust that you can sit next to them and be safe, right? Like your body can be safe, perhaps.

Sean Plunkett (52:29.279)
Yeah, yeah, and maybe you can, maybe you have to sit across the room and just say it, and I think that's the part that's unique about Pratt in particular, and I also think allowing conflict with professors is super important, so I encourage it, a lot of times I'll get crickets, but when it does happen, I don't like it, but I also completely value it because authority sometimes corrupts.

MVK (52:35.876)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

MVK (52:46.771)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (52:58.295)
And so if a student can tell you, you know what, that was a really bad lesson, or I think that was wrong, and they can say it with anger in their voice, I know that it doesn't feel good for me, but I also incredibly value it, because I'm like, damn, you are allowing me access to that part of you, and I don't know if you have been able to do that. So like in our papers, I say like, hey, if during the group class you were mad at me and you thought something that I did was wrong,

MVK (52:58.718)
Yeah, true.

MVK (53:11.607)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (53:26.515)
put it in the paper. I'm not gonna lower your grade for that. It's honest, it's true, it's real, it's value.

MVK (53:28.162)
Hmm

MVK (53:33.186)
Yes. Yeah, so it's descent is valuable. Yeah, the person who has the power isn't always right. And so again, another way to just reduce the discrepancy because of the power dynamic to allow for you to be wrong and ask for that kind of feedback.

Sean Plunkett (53:37.987)
so much.

Sean Plunkett (53:43.612)
so much.

Sean Plunkett (53:53.374)
Mm-mm.

Yeah, I'm wrong a lot. But also not, you know, but also not. And we all do it. So there should be space for that.

MVK (53:57.422)
Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love that because it also, it shows our students that they too are going to make mistakes and it's better to be real about the mistakes than to hide them or to miss them, right? Yeah. Mm.

Sean Plunkett (54:19.027)
100%. Yeah, or to not allow for them because like all of us go into this work with really good intentions, right? But sometimes you're not received the way that you intend. And sometimes that is the work to be like, oh my God, I'm the bad object. Just because of how I look or the one thing I'd said or I had a really bad day that day. And I just, you know, I didn't, I wasn't careful and you're the bad object and like, damn, how can I tolerate?

MVK (54:28.014)
Sure.

MVK (54:32.247)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (54:48.115)
And I've been the bad object before. And I've been the bad object sometimes because of things that I did sometimes, just because I look a certain way. And that's the work. And it's hard, but it's quite necessary.

MVK (54:50.19)
Sure.

MVK (54:56.387)
Mm-hmm. And that's the work.

MVK (55:02.382)
Totally. And I imagine that also shows up in the classroom, right? It's not just in therapist client work, but it's absolutely also in teacher student work. Yeah. I'd love to pivot the conversation towards art supplies and how you play with art supplies, what you like to bring into your classes, both online and in person. Like what do you like? What do you do?

Sean Plunkett (55:06.232)
Oh yeah.

Sean Plunkett (55:11.391)
100%.

Sean Plunkett (55:18.383)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Sean Plunkett (55:27.201)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (55:31.348)
I'm a bad art therapist because I don't stick to materials. I like playful things. So I like garbage a lot. Garbage is fun to me. But I think you could work with anything. There's nothing that I'm like, oh, I love this. Clay is really fun because you could just do a lot with it. I think that's useful.

MVK (55:34.323)
Okay.

MVK (55:42.154)
Okay?

MVK (55:46.439)
Yay!

Okay?

MVK (55:57.679)
Mm. Yes.

Sean Plunkett (55:59.915)
But other than that, I think everything is a material, like everything. And so I don't really gravitate towards like really nice paints or really this and that. I like toys a lot, like little miniature things. I like that. But when it comes to materials, I just think about what the student may gravitate to. So a lot of students come from an art background. So like color pencils or paint or things of that sort.

MVK (56:12.702)
Yeah. Yes. Uh huh.

MVK (56:23.244)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (56:29.031)
But I firmly believe that if you can do a directive with whatever you have laying around, then that's really valuable. But I'm trying to think of some materials that I really, there are some materials for very specific products, for projects that are really useful. If you work in an institution, it's really useful. But For students, I wanna give them everything possible, including things that are

MVK (56:39.115)
Yes.

Sean Plunkett (56:56.923)
natural like dirt and leaves and you know or sometimes we'll do a directive where like don't bring any art supplies we're gonna go outside and we're gonna make art with whatever you find and that can be a natural thing or something you find on the ground. And I allow them to bring like scissors, maybe some string if they want to but everything else is just

MVK (57:17.87)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (57:19.595)
stuff you find and I like those things more because it's also difficult for me to think about it because everything's a material. I want everything if you go to my house. I have every art supply on the planet, but do I like hold anything precious? No

MVK (57:21.25)
Great.

MVK (57:34.766)
Hmm. It's not, I mean, I'm hearing this thread throughout everything that you've shared really is accessibility. How to make education accessible, how to make different thoughts and frameworks accessible and how to make art making accessible, right? Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (57:45.585)
Hmm

Sean Plunkett (57:55.023)
Yeah, yeah. I learn a ton from travel, like so much. I love traveling, so I'm always traveling. And I remember I went to India and I just graduated school and I didn't finish my thesis. So I was like, let me just go to India and write it. The worst decision. It was such a bad decision. It was a good, no, it was a great decision, but it was highly irresponsible because I was like, I'll just write it in India. I didn't realize traveling in India is a...

really hard, so got sick and all that type of stuff. But during the process, I ended up volunteering at a farm. They gave me housing, I ran out of money. I was not even halfway through my trip. I ran out of all the money. But I worked at a farm and then there was a little kid on the farm and we did chores around the farm, like cleaning and all that type of stuff. But then I was like, I want to give him something so we can make something. And I remembered I brought color pencils.

MVK (58:37.293)
Oh, wow.

Sean Plunkett (58:53.363)
color pencils And I gave him the color pencils and it was like this really remote village. There was not a Westerner for a really long time. And I think this boy hadn't experienced getting color pencils before and the way he handled them so preciously and so like, you know, he made a little mark but was so careful because he didn't want to use too much of it. And I just thought about like, wow, he's probably going to hold onto these color pencils for a long time.

MVK (58:59.586)
Hmm

MVK (59:08.152)
Yeah.

MVK (59:23.452)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (59:24.391)
Why? Why did I change his experience? And that's fine. It did happen. But I just thought about, so what happens when he runs out of color pencils? You know what I mean? And so I thought about if I can work with someone with what they have without changing it, what would that look like? And that's where these ideas came from. So I don't go to England and Europe and all that, other than when I'm old. But I go to a lot of remote places.

MVK (59:35.444)
Yeah.

MVK (59:43.905)
you

Sean Plunkett (59:54.303)
And me giving these fancy supplies, is that really helpful? And sometimes, yeah, sometimes no, but it's like, hmm, what am I really doing in those situations? And then I think about like their own values. So how can I allow for them with their own culture, with their own values, make something? Because everyone has art. So that's really where the thinking comes from. So every country I go to, I feel like I learn.

MVK (59:59.173)
Yeah.

MVK (01:00:14.69)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (01:00:22.229)
I just had a graduate degree because I learned so much, so much from every country I've been to.

MVK (01:00:25.558)
but... yeah.

I bet. I mean, what I'm hearing what you're saying is how important it is to enter into a new space with humility. Right. So coming, coming into another cultural space and

Sean Plunkett (01:00:38.951)
Yeah.

MVK (01:00:47.586)
paying attention, witnessing, listening, and learning from, rather than coming into the space with like the satchel of where you come from and putting it out, right? And how important it is to meet people where they are, rather than expect or believe you know what's right.

Sean Plunkett (01:00:49.523)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Plunkett (01:01:00.539)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (01:01:10.671)
Yeah, yeah. Humility is key, and sometimes you can't have any because you're a rich American and that's what it is. No, it is, but also just being aware of that, right? Not just being like, oh, you know. Because going to grad school is super expensive. Having a job where you can just be like, you know what? I'm going to do it online is a huge privilege. Like, I'm a person of color, and I have things, but I also have massive privilege.

MVK (01:01:22.303)
Yeah.

MVK (01:01:26.774)
Yeah.

MVK (01:01:34.29)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (01:01:38.887)
So just being aware of that, that doesn't mean it's gonna change anything necessarily, but you also can just see things differently and you can really see people, like really see them as much as possible. When you kind of like try at least to bring that down and to translate your own experience into someone else's because they're trying to do it with yours and sometimes their ideas about what a therapist is, is so different.

MVK (01:01:41.399)
Hmm.

MVK (01:01:52.657)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (01:02:08.539)
that you don't even realize you're actually not connecting. You know what I mean? So therapist, authority figure, teacher. I feel like teacher and therapist in a lot of countries are the same. And for Westerners, it may not be. And so you're coming from a different angle and you're just, you know, let me know what's happening, da da. And they're just like, you're the authority. So I'm not gonna tell you anything embarrassing, you know? So just being aware of that helps so much.

MVK (01:02:18.832)
Mmm.

MVK (01:02:28.77)
That's right.

MVK (01:02:33.946)
Yes. Yeah, I appreciate that. And knowing that you're going to make mistakes and how to continue to repair. Yeah. Well, I we're close to the end of our time together, and I'd love to end with hearing about your future goals like what like 10, 10 years from now. Where where do you see yourself or as an educator? What what else would you like to experience?

Sean Plunkett (01:02:41.059)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (01:02:55.322)
Wow. I.

Sean Plunkett (01:03:02.963)
That's, okay, maybe not 10 years, because I can barely think past 10 minutes, but it's okay, two, two. Okay, I'll just say it because it's actually true. I'm working on a book. So yeah, this is my first one. So I don't know what I'm doing, but I've written quite a bit since the pandemic. I think everyone has explored a lot since the pandemic.

MVK (01:03:05.33)
Okay. Two. Okay, too far. Two years.

MVK (01:03:18.619)
Okay.

MVK (01:03:31.604)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (01:03:31.631)
So I'm writing a book right now. I think I'm gonna self-publish it, but it's about how, it's pretty much about the benefits of slowing down. And so I integrate psychology things that I've learned. Pretty much everything from my personality class has been super useful. So I'm like, yeah, that has helped me a lot. So I definitely wanna publish that.

MVK (01:03:56.683)
Yeah.

Sean Plunkett (01:04:00.815)
And I think other than that, I kind of just want to, I wanna expand more of what therapy is. So I have just been, you know, with travel, seeing different like indigenous healing practices and reading about like these concepts from the past that I'm like, this is psychotherapy, but we don't call it that.

And I think there's so much knowledge from, I don't even wanna say the past because it still exists, but I think therapy has become a brand name. And I think that we sometimes discount the things that people before us have really put into place and that, you know, in some cultures, like if you have a problem, you sit on a bench with the designated grandma and you tell her your problems and she just listens.

MVK (01:04:38.914)
Hmm.

Sean Plunkett (01:04:57.555)
and that's it, and that's therapy. And we can think of all these words for it and all this stuff, but it's been happening forever, forever. Buddhism and even before that. So I wanna learn more about that. And I wanna put it, I wanna place it purposefully within my classes. It's a huge task and I don't think I'm the only one that's doing it, but I wanna integrate those things more and more into my work. So for me doing that.

MVK (01:05:00.056)
Yeah.

MVK (01:05:05.458)
Yeah, right, of course.

MVK (01:05:21.377)
Right.

Sean Plunkett (01:05:27.031)
and writing a book would be really fun. And then the third thing I want to do is I want to just have more fun. I sometimes with academia, it just gets extra boring. And what I mean by boring is not that the work is complicated or whatever. It just, you just hear the same ideas over and over again without a different direction. So what I learned from teaching from a long time ago,

MVK (01:05:37.288)
Yay.

Sean Plunkett (01:05:54.923)
to be an English teacher in Japan, I learned that the best lessons are the ones that are fun for you. So when I make a fun lesson for me or a lesson that's interesting for me, then that joy can permeate out. So I think that some of my classes aren't as fun as I want them to be with the didactic, so I want to make them more fun, more alive, and more aware. So I think if I could do that...

MVK (01:06:01.698)
Hmm.

MVK (01:06:19.282)
Mmm.

Sean Plunkett (01:06:23.583)
I think that'd be really dope. I would, I'm gonna be teaching these classes for a while. So why not make them fun and interesting and applicable to now, to absolutely now. So if I could do those three things, definitely I'm definitely gonna have to finish the book because that's a tangible thing. But it's more about being able to say that I started this thing and I'm finishing this thing.

MVK (01:06:25.705)
Yes.

MVK (01:06:33.73)
Yeah.

MVK (01:06:46.9)
I have ADD.

Sean Plunkett (01:06:48.023)
I found it out in 2020. So, so now I'm like, oh, that's why I don't finish things. So for me, this project is a personal and a professional, you know? So that's why I kind of want to do it so I can prove to myself that I can do it. And of course, again, like, oh, so if I can do it, then these are the tools that I use. Here's some tools so you can start off where I ended. That's kind of what I want to do.

MVK (01:06:57.125)
Yes.

MVK (01:07:10.958)
I love that. Those are really gorgeous goals. And may, may there be so much ease as you meet those goals.

Sean Plunkett (01:07:14.18)
Oh, thank you.

Sean Plunkett (01:07:19.598)
I like that. Thank you. I appreciate that.

MVK (01:07:21.95)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Sean, thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and your fun. I've really appreciated it.

Sean Plunkett (01:07:32.635)
Me too. Thank you so much for inviting me. This was really great. Thank you.

MVK (01:07:35.89)
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. We did it. I think it's, it's supposed to be stopping, but it doesn't want to for some

Sean Plunkett (01:07:46.494)
Laughter

Sean Plunkett (01:07:50.021)
Oh.