Dr. Donna Owens: Non-Neutral Educator

Donna C. Owens (she/her), PhD — Supervisor of Academic Affairs and Visiting Assistant Professor, GSASS-Expressive Therapies Department. Donna has a BA in Women’s Studies from Trinity College and an MA in Expressive Arts Therapies/Mental Health Counseling and PhD in Expressive Therapies from Lesley University. Donna teaches in the master’s and PhD programs and is the course mentor for the program’s social and cultural diversity course “Examining Power, Privilege, and Oppression in Clinical Practice.” Donna’s scholarly interests include multicultural counseling in the helping professions, use of poetic transcription in evaluation, and the role of spirituality in healing. Her areas of specialization include program evaluation and nonprofit management. Donna has published on participatory action research with youth and arts-based spiritual practice. She serves on the editorial board of the Journal of Poetry Therapy.

Transcript

MVK (00:02.674)
I'm excited to introduce Dr. Donna Owens to the Boundaries and Belonging podcast today. Donna is a supervisor of academic affairs and a visiting assistant professor in the expressive therapies department at Lesley University. And she has a number of really important and interesting interests, including multicultural counseling, poetic transcription and evaluation, and the role of spirituality in healing.

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Donna C. Owens (00:36.626)
Hi, thank you for inviting me.

MVK (00:38.53)
Yes, I would love to start by hearing your thoughts about boundaries and belonging. How do you think about boundaries when it comes to your work as an educator? And where does belonging fit in this work?

Donna C. Owens (00:53.91)
Yeah, so I primarily teach our cultural competence, multicultural competence course, and boundaries come up a lot in that course, a lot around who we are, how are we gonna be together in a space. And I think for me, the two really kind of touch each other.

the boundaries and the belonging. And the belonging also, you know, it's like in order for people to grow, they have to be able to be in a space where they feel that they can engage in really tough conversations. So for me in the classroom, it's really about setting up like, what are the boundaries of the space that we're in as, you know, as people who are learning together, which is one of my.

boundaries and belonging things in my classes. Like we're learning together. It's not just me teaching the students, but then that the belonging is really about, how am I able to be in this classroom? And how am I able to open space for other people to be in the classroom as well?

MVK (02:07.978)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it sounds like they work together. I'm wondering if you could, oh, were you gonna say something else? Sorry. Oh, okay. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your teaching experience, what you love about it, what led you to where you are now.

Donna C. Owens (02:12.246)
They do, yes.

Donna C. Owens (02:28.306)
Yeah, so I started teaching in this program, the expressive therapies program while I was doing my PhD. And I had been the graduate assistant for the person who created our multicultural competency course, which is called Power, Privilege and Oppression. So I'll probably say that because it's easier PPO course. And you know,

And so this is one of the first courses, and actually it changed the direction of my dissertation. So I decided to do my dissertation on multicultural competency education. And so that was in 2008, and I've been adjuncting for the most part since then until 2020, when I became a visiting professor. And.

Yeah, it's been a long time. I've loved every moment of it. I really, really love teaching. I love everything about teaching. I usually teach two or three courses over the year. I also teach in our PhD program as well. And I think the part that I love most about teaching is curriculum development.

I know, people are like, what? I was like, yes, this is the part. And it's like, it's so exciting. And getting to research, I like the facilitation in the classroom, but the art of creating and the creativity behind creating the syllabus and then creating the curriculum is a part that I love. And then, you know, seeing where students were to where they are at the end of the course is also something that really excites me.

MVK (03:45.832)
Mmm. Yes. No.

MVK (04:15.066)
So like the evolution over time. Yes, I love curriculum development too. And it is an art. And I imagine that there is a connection for you. And this is, I mean, this is an assumption. So correct me if I'm wrong, but a connection between curriculum development and your teaching frame. Like what's important to you to have in a course and also.

Donna C. Owens (04:18.402)
Yes.

MVK (04:42.978)
how you hold and facilitate this curriculum. Would you say a little bit about that?

Donna C. Owens (04:48.49)
Yes, yes, definitely. So my frame is a very collaborative and very inquiry based. So which just comes from my own. I need to know things all the time. I'm very much a research person. I want to delve in and learn more. So I bring that to the curriculum development process. And then I encourage that in the students that, you know, we're not just, you know, one of the

things that we say at the very beginning of the course. And I have a list of shared agreements. And one of the things in there is that no one knows everything, including the instructor. And sometimes I say, especially the instructor. So that we're learning together, and it's really about like, how do we gather this information so that we can grow and learn about whatever the topic is in the course?

So I think of teaching as.

For me, teaching is my scholarship. So the creation of the course or the building of the curriculum is part of my scholarship. And that, you know, I teach in partnership, it's communal, it's iterative, it's emergent, you know, it's all of those really good and wonderful things, I think.

MVK (05:54.91)
Mmm.

MVK (06:11.706)
Yes, and I believe that the way that we create the space from the beginning to the end really helps to support the emergence of newness or growth or creativity. And I guess I'm wondering what that looks like. If you could paint a picture for us of you as a teacher, what would we see?

Donna C. Owens (06:19.025)
Mm.

Donna C. Owens (06:25.218)
Yeah.

Donna C. Owens (06:41.606)
In the classroom, I'm always standing. I'm a bit of a pacer. I like to be able to move around. I don't really teach, I don't teach a lot online because I like to be able to move around in the classroom. You know, I can kind of describe a general class session. We usually start with some kind of community building exercise where we're just sharing something about ourselves.

MVK (06:46.74)
Ha ha!

MVK (06:50.913)
Yeah.

MVK (06:54.434)
Okay.

Donna C. Owens (07:08.982)
delve into the topic because it's in a, I'm teaching the expressive therapies. We usually do processing via the arts at the beginning of class. And then, you know, I'm about and moving and we do a lot of small group conversations and then larger group conversations, really because the topic is so, can be so really intense for some students, students who are learning about these things for the first time.

as well as students who've been kind of doing the work, you know, themselves over time. And, you know, a lot of conversation and a lot of, you know, questions and inquiry in the sense that, you know, I encourage students to ask questions, even if I don't know the answers to those questions, right? And that, you know, this is the inquiry and maybe someone else here knows, or maybe...

MVK (07:59.634)
Mm.

Donna C. Owens (08:05.086)
we can figure it out together. Maybe between now and next class, I can delve a little bit deeper into that and learn more about it to share. But it's really kind of, it's active in the sense that I'm, I feel active because I'm always moving around, but it's also active in the sense that I have students move a bit, it's like from small group to larger group and things like that.

MVK (08:29.182)
Mm-hmm. I'm wondering how that impacts student voice and belonging, going from small group to large group, individual work to larger work.

Donna C. Owens (08:42.99)
Yeah, I think it really, really helps students, especially students who take a little bit longer to process things, the students who may have be a little shy about sharing right away. So really starting with thinking about it, you know, think about this topic as an individual, as a person.

and then share either in pairs or triads. I usually try not to have the small groups bigger than that so that everyone's voice gets heard. And then, you know, I don't force people to share back in the larger group. You know, it's more like, okay, are there things that came up in your groups? And I always find it interesting that a lot of times there was one person in a group, a triad, that's more outspoken and they'll start.

MVK (09:17.026)
Mm-hmm.

Donna C. Owens (09:36.566)
But a lot of times everyone in the group will end up talking. So I think that it's a way of allowing students to kind of find their voice. So they can try it out on a piece of paper or in art, and then they can try it out with one or two other people before they try it out with the full classroom.

MVK (09:55.022)
Totally. I really agree with that. And that's my experience too, that it's like warming up their voices, warming up their comfort and being vulnerable or being honest or being present even. Yeah. I'm curious how, how does, how does conflict show up in your courses? I, you know, I imagine that there is all kinds of ways that conflict shows up in just tension and also in

Donna C. Owens (10:01.515)
Yes.

Donna C. Owens (10:07.807)
Right, right.

MVK (10:25.014)
you know, sound. But I'm curious if you could share a bit about what that looks like and how you navigate it.

Donna C. Owens (10:32.086)
Right, right. So the nature of teaching, you know, multicultural counseling is right there. You know, it was like there's a lot of conflict and tension that happens. I think that we have to have conflict and tension in that course, especially in order for people to grow. Because I think if we're all just kind of.

super breezy and cool with what's happening that none of us are growing. Like we're not learning anything if it's like everybody's like oh yep or we don't care. And so I think Conflict and tension are where people are challenged and I think when you're challenged then you can grow you kind of open up a path for growing for learning something else. So I welcome it.

MVK (11:03.371)
Mm.

Donna C. Owens (11:27.47)
in my course, I'm really clear about it. There's a person on Instagram, I think she's called the Rebellious History Teacher, and she has a little thing that I use. It's like, I'm a non-neutral educator, right? And I tell students that the first day, and part of it, and I will try to quote this as best I can, which she says is, I will not encourage you to consider both sides.

MVK (11:36.566)
Hmm.

Donna C. Owens (11:56.49)
if one side is the oppressor. So I start there in my class. That's one of the very first statements that I make in introducing myself and introducing the course, that we are in a place where there's going to be conflict and tension. And that's the space where we can grow in, because if we're not struggling with the topics, somehow we already know it all. And I don't think that's real. So.

MVK (12:22.322)
All done!

Donna C. Owens (12:25.382)
So it means, you know, to me that, oh, well, I don't care about this, or, you know, I'm not willing to grow into this. So, yeah, so it's very much welcome in my classroom.

MVK (12:32.29)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (12:36.728)
And what does it look like or sound like sometimes?

Donna C. Owens (12:41.07)
I think it's sometimes it looks like

Donna C. Owens (12:50.238)
For some students it looks like, especially the tension, it's just kind of they're pulled into themselves a little bit. I've actually seen where like in a small triad, like someone, it's like their chair just slowly moves back away from the other folks in the group. And like, you know, and I try, you know, I have to do small groups, I roam about the classroom. And so I like try to.

MVK (12:56.995)
Mm.

Donna C. Owens (13:16.578)
jump in and see where the tension is and try to encourage students to be able to kind of, bring this conversation forward. And sometimes it's, recently had a class where it really sounds like tears, when a student's like struggling with a topic or struggling with kind of the reality of what's happening in the world and how it's touching and affecting them in their lives. So bringing that,

to the fore and then I think because we've built this space of belonging and this kind of space of care that other students tend to even quicker than me sometimes check in, right, and try to hold that for their fellow students.

And this is a first semester course. This is one of the first courses students are taking. So it's kind of important for them to kind of be able to build that with each other.

MVK (14:16.116)
Yeah.

MVK (14:22.666)
Absolutely. And I love how you described it there. You know, there's this pulling back, this pulling in and then a reaching towards, you know, I think that that's really beautiful and makes a lot of sense because conflict can feel it just can feel so intense in the moment, in the microcosm.

Donna C. Owens (14:32.244)
us.

Donna C. Owens (14:45.582)
Yes, yes. And occasionally it's really, you hear it in the questions that students ask. And it's kind of the way they're asking them. Sometimes it's, you know, it's they're a little hesitant about the question because they understand that there's something about this question that people aren't going to necessarily agree with or that's going to

challenge other people or that they're struggling with it. And so they're asking the question because they want something. So it's also, it's a reaching out in a different way. It's like, I want to understand this better. And so asking the question.

MVK (15:13.335)
Mm.

MVK (15:23.382)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I imagine, too, I mean, you shared that you are physically active in class, moving around, going between groups. Like, I imagine listening and watching. How else do you use your body as a facilitator? How do you think about that?

Donna C. Owens (15:47.674)
I try to be aware that I'm not like, you know, standing with my arms crossed or folded or something. So I do try to be aware of how I'm physically in the classroom. I do move. The classroom, especially this year, is kind of a big classroom, which is great. So I tend to move about towards who's speaking so that, you know, I can face them, I can hear them better.

we're still masking in my class. So, you know, sometimes like, you know, I just wanna be able to let people know that I'm really listening. And so, you know, some of the softer spoken students, you know, I try to move towards. I, yeah, I pace the pacing. I try to keep not distracting. I'm. But.

MVK (16:38.082)
hahahaha

Donna C. Owens (16:40.682)
You know, and I go, you know, it's like, I think I also use somebody to signify when we're changing because I use PowerPoint slides. So I move back to the computer to switch to the next thing or the next topic. And so there's the moving about in that way as well.

MVK (16:48.514)
Hmm.

MVK (16:57.106)
I appreciate hearing that. I can see it. I'm imagining it. I can see you moving through and...

Donna C. Owens (17:01.886)
They're wandering around the classroom with my boots that are clopping on the floor. And so there's this often a sound track.

MVK (17:08.002)
So there's a soundtrack also.

MVK (17:13.154)
That's great. That's great. I bet there's like, that has an interesting impact in the class around like knowing that you are there and that you are moving. You know, just kind of like the, one of the holders of the space, you know.

Donna C. Owens (17:29.77)
Yeah, I feel like when I've tried to teach and sit, I feel like we're not engaged. Because I mean, I don't know that students feel that way, but I feel disengaged from the process when I'm sitting. So I imagine that comes across, that it's not comfortable for me to just be sitting at a table.

And so, you know, me and my notes waving through the air and moving around the classroom.

MVK (18:01.45)
Oh, it sounds it sounds lovely and really dynamic.

Donna C. Owens (18:07.374)
entertaining, you know, either way.

MVK (18:08.638)
Yeah, well, you know, I think that there is, or at least there can be an element to being a performer as an educator, you know, there's like this magical movement that we're offering, you know, pushing, pulling, containing, you know, maybe tearing apart. Yeah, so it does sound like that, like a bit of a performance.

Donna C. Owens (18:18.723)
to the link.

Donna C. Owens (18:27.138)
Yes.

Donna C. Owens (18:30.87)
Yes, I always say that. Yeah, teaching is performance. For me, anyway, it's part of that facilitation is not just spewing knowledge. It's definitely a dance, yes, yes.

MVK (18:38.242)
Yeah.

MVK (18:45.359)
Yes. Right. Because it's a dance. Yeah.

I, when you said earlier about that, the Instagram human that you follow, that says they are a non, what did you say? A non-neutral educator?

Donna C. Owens (19:03.067)
Non-neutral educator, yeah.

MVK (19:05.73)
I'm wondering how that relates to what you believe, know, feel, are your responsibilities as an educator in these fields.

Donna C. Owens (19:19.662)
So I think that...

The primary responsibility, I think, is preparing for the future of the field, right? So in our program, we're training people who are going to, you know, they're getting training in creative arts therapies, one of the expressive therapies, and mental health counseling. So these are people who are going to be out in the field either as counselors or in some type of helping way with other folks.

MVK (19:29.515)
Mm.

MVK (19:50.049)
Mm.

Donna C. Owens (19:51.274)
So I think my primary responsibility is preparing folks for that. And I often think like the students are going to be our colleagues, they're gonna be fellow practitioners, they're gonna be leaders, some of them are gonna be scholars. So preparing people to be in the world and in the field and to be able, this course specifically, to be able to...

be aware of multicultural issues and to be aware of social justice within their field. So that's I think is the primary responsibility. So I'm not neutral in this class. I'm not, you know, there are oppressors and I'm not going to, you know, pretend that we're all on this even flat playing field, that we're all kind of coming at things from the same

MVK (20:28.003)
Yes.

MVK (20:34.968)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (20:40.502)
truth.

Donna C. Owens (20:49.846)
place and that all of our experiences are the same because they're not.

MVK (20:52.786)
Right. No, impossible.

Donna C. Owens (20:56.256)
Impossible.

MVK (20:57.594)
Mm-hmm. I'm wondering, like, with this preparedness as one of your, you know, stated responsibilities, how does gatekeeping come in? You know, gatekeeping is, it's a controversial term, right? Especially in, you know, the frame of what we're just talking about around social justice and inclusion. And it is a part of...

Donna C. Owens (21:06.137)
Mm-hmm.

Donna C. Owens (21:13.302)
Hahaha

Donna C. Owens (21:19.095)
Yes.

MVK (21:26.662)
Is it a part of our responsibility as educators in these fields? What do you think about that?

Donna C. Owens (21:32.542)
So gatekeeping is about controlling access. And so, yes, it's, I mean.

MVK (21:36.878)
Mm-hmm.

Donna C. Owens (21:42.434)
some negative things around controlling access, but there's also within the context of professional practice, so that's where I struggle with it, right? So I understand it in the context of professional practice, but I also understand this notion of controlling access too. So for...

MVK (21:46.966)
Yes, it does.

MVK (22:04.032)
Yes.

Donna C. Owens (22:07.382)
This course, especially for my role as the supervisor of academic affairs, which, you know, I primarily hire and oversee our adjunct instructors. And it's important in the context of us to make sure that we are educating people to enter the field who are ready and prepared for the power, privilege, and oppression courses really about, you know, they're prepared to do the work from a social justice lens and through multiculturalism.

We don't want people to enter the field that aren't ready. You don't want folks to enter the field who might harm their clients. So there is gatekeeping. So it's like, there's the overall learning in the class that people are doing, and then we have the assignments that kind of gauge readiness in different ways. Are they ready to move to the next course in their sequence? So...

As individual instructors, there's gatekeeping. And then as a program or a department, there's gatekeeping for the field. And it's, yeah, it's something, it's the term itself I struggle with a lot, but the concept of kind of making sure that we're preparing people in the best way and that we're not doing harm by not preparing people is also really important.

MVK (23:27.49)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (23:35.11)
It is, and I appreciate you speaking to the conflict within the term, the history of how that practice has shown up and continues to around access. And then also that place of, is this person a good fit for supporting others to move through X, Y, and Z?

Donna C. Owens (24:02.574)
Right, right. And I think that that's part of our responsibility as educators in this field. I mean, I think that's true in most fields. So you want people who are entering the field who are ready and prepared. I think the place where it becomes a problem is that if we're gatekeeping in a way that we're not allowing people to even access the education itself, or that we're really kind of controlling

MVK (24:11.957)
Mm-hmm.

Donna C. Owens (24:32.862)
become part of the field.

MVK (24:36.091)
I'm curious if you want to speak more about that part.

Donna C. Owens (24:38.01)
I don't know if I want to speak more!

MVK (24:41.63)
It's tricky!

Donna C. Owens (24:43.05)
It just popped in my head that this is a problem, right? I think that when we're doing our admissions interviews and when we're thinking about who do we accept into our programs, that we're not gatekeeping in a sense that we're allowing our processes to be open enough so that we attract.

MVK (24:46.689)
Yeah.

Donna C. Owens (25:11.762)
and can bring in a variety of folks, right? And that we can bring in people who are really interested in the field. And yes, there's some gatekeeping that happens there, but I think that access is very different from, how do we move people through once they're there? And I think it also means that we don't bring in people that we feel are gonna not be successful because we're just setting them up.

So it's really kind of, it's, it's a, there's a lot of balancing in gatekeeping. It's almost like walking on the fence when you're gatekeeping, like trying to, you know, keep yourself from tipping over or falling off on one side or the other.

MVK (25:57.518)
Totally, and it's also a team effort. So the folks who have the power, educators and administrators, are theoretically working together around gatekeeping. And I imagine, or I know, that there's often a spectrum of perspective around who can and who can't.

Donna C. Owens (26:02.584)
Mm-hmm.

Donna C. Owens (26:10.584)
Yes.

Donna C. Owens (26:21.014)
Yeah, yeah. And that then once we make the decision of who can, that we are working together to continue to support them and being able to, right? So, you know, we're not saying that, oh, yeah, we just accept everybody in the program and then, you know, a lot of students fail out or don't complete it because they weren't prepared. But if we know that they're kind of, you know, it's like...

MVK (26:42.315)
Yeah.

Donna C. Owens (26:48.15)
this student could use a little extra, and if we're taking them in, then we have to be committed to providing that extra. We can't just, you know, just say, yep, you're here, and now you, you know, you're an adult, get it together. We have to support people through the whole process, or else, you know, it's a different kind of gatekeeping, because then we're saying, well, you see, we shouldn't have let this person in or that person in, because we haven't provided the part that we're supposed to provide.

MVK (27:13.303)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (27:16.942)
Mm-hmm, yeah, and that comes back to the responsibility of supporting preparedness. Yeah. Well, I'm wondering if we could pivot to art materials, and I'm curious, art materials, movement-based directives, sounds, I'm wondering what are some of your favorite creative ways to play in the classroom?

Donna C. Owens (27:22.178)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Right.

Donna C. Owens (27:46.359)
So, in the expressive therapies, our department's expressive therapies, we have five specializations. The specialization that I graduated from is expressive art therapy, which is kind of an intermodal, interweaving of the different, but the students are all of them. We have art, drama, dance, and music. So, I tend to,

have a lot of image making in my class. So we're gonna create an image and then allow the students to choose the way that they create the image. Every now and then, it'll be something specifically that's specifically visual art. We're gonna map this thing on a piece of paper with line and color, but usually it's more of an open invitation because

I want students to be, again, this is first semester course, so I want students to begin being able to explore and explore these specific kinds of topics in whatever modality is comfortable for them. So it's interesting. Usually students, regardless of their specialization,

go to visual art images. It's very interesting. But not everyone does. And I think sometimes you have that one student that's like, I'm a movement person, so I'm gonna move my image, and it helps to kind of loosen it up for some of the other students. I think it's helpful when there's at least two.

MVK (29:14.754)
Is that right?

Donna C. Owens (29:39.642)
students from a specialization because then they kind of feel confident enough to do that together. But I encourage students you know if your image is an image of words that's welcome here. If it's an image of sound that's welcome here. If it's line, if it's color, if it's you know moving your body in some way however you create the image.

MVK (29:40.232)
Yeah.

MVK (30:06.063)
I appreciate the expansion of the word image. You know that it can be the image can be 3D. It can be, you know, not capturable. It can be movement and sound. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Donna C. Owens (30:16.978)
Right, right, right. And I find it very important to do that because you know, I'm expressive arts therapies, my primary modality is poetry and writing and I have often been in classes where, you know, it's like draw an image, draw a thing. And I'm like, ah, I drew some words on a piece of paper. All my words are in different colors. Does that count?

MVK (30:44.935)
Yes. Yes it does.

Donna C. Owens (30:46.542)
like I'm pulling a stack of markers and make my words in funny shapes or something. So I feel like, you know, I want to be welcome to create the image, however that image comes in that moment. So I welcome for students to be able to do that in the classroom.

MVK (31:04.358)
I imagine that also facilitates a sense of belonging if everybody's interest is allowed in the space.

Donna C. Owens (31:12.766)
Yes, yes. And because I think the important part of that is if I'm processing something, I'm processing something that's, you know, I could be having conflict with this right now. And if you're forcing me to process it in a way that's not comfortable for me, it's just putting up another barrier to being able to grow in that way.

MVK (31:35.918)
Mm-hmm.

Donna C. Owens (31:39.502)
We do, I do a lot of processing and reflecting through the arts and there's mostly around, you know, create the image of something.

MVK (31:46.726)
Yeah. I'm wondering when you're in the space with students creating images in whatever form, how do you track, see, witness the third that emerges or the flow that the whole group kind of grooves with?

Donna C. Owens (32:12.578)
So...

Donna C. Owens (32:15.986)
particular course, we don't really get there a lot because we don't have the holding time and space for it. So I don't usually, I'm not usually striving towards getting into that. Well, because when I think about flow, I think of kind of like this timeless space that people get into with the art creation and they can get into it

MVK (32:26.482)
Okay.

Donna C. Owens (32:44.146)
individually by themselves so we can get into it within the group.

Donna C. Owens (32:52.014)
So we don't really, I don't really go there that much. I don't really go there in my class. Students may go there in the other work that they do. So sometimes, you know, other, sometimes, you know, it's like we're going to, I'm gonna invite them to explore a topic outside of class using their art. But also in that, also helping them to

MVK (32:57.116)
Okay.

Donna C. Owens (33:20.418)
build the boundaries around it so that they can not be lost in that space and that they can come back. So you know, this is you're going to explore this, maybe you will create a time and give yourself plenty of time, but that something's going to alert you that you've been here for this amount of time and that you know, you should move on, you should consider where you are in space.

MVK (33:25.526)
Hmm.

MVK (33:45.415)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (33:49.306)
Mm.

Donna C. Owens (33:50.39)
But we don't do it as much in the classroom. Just because it's, you know, if I have 15, 18 students and we're talking about racism and white supremacy, getting to a flow space is probably not going to be, the boundaries are too flexible, I think, than for students in that.

MVK (33:54.08)
Okay.

MVK (34:13.262)
Hmm. That makes sense. And there's also, I would imagine, too, there are so many perspectives to explore, as well as literature, podcasts, videos to also digest and speak to.

Donna C. Owens (34:35.114)
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And I, you know, I tend to try, I'm a reader. I lean heavily on reading and articles in my class, but I also give the students as many options as possible for some of these other things. So it's like, here's some podcasts, here's some videos, here's, you know, other, some folks on Instagram that you can follow or look at a few videos of theirs or something to help students. But...

MVK (34:52.846)
Hmm.

Donna C. Owens (35:05.215)
that flow space in the classroom just doesn't happen in that way.

MVK (35:07.246)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I appreciate hearing that there is an inclusion of alternative materials to reading to make the curriculum accessible to all learning styles. Yeah. That's part of the curriculum magic.

Donna C. Owens (35:24.568)
Yes.

Donna C. Owens (35:32.111)
It's part of the joy of creating, it's the art of creating the curriculum that I enjoy so much. It's finding all the different ways to engage students because, you know, I mean, you know, if an instructor gave me 10 pages of articles to read, I would be as happy as can be, but that's just me. That's not how all of my students or most of the students are actually processing the things, you know.

MVK (35:41.405)
Yeah.

MVK (35:52.05)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (35:56.33)
Mm-hmm, which is so important. It's it's similar with, you know, access to art supplies to teaching style. It's how does like as an educator, what I like and how I learn and teach isn't necessarily what all of my students need or what their perspectives or their interests are. So it's, you know, it's this place of seeing self as teacher, and then figuring out how to, you know,

adapt to include.

Donna C. Owens (36:27.262)
Right, right. And I think that goes back to this thing of belonging, right? So it was like, how does a student feel like they can belong in the class? The first day of class, students have seen my 35 page syllabus and they're in a bit of a panic. And one of the first things I tell them is like, these required readings, I actually don't expect you to read them all. So then I can feel the sigh.

MVK (36:41.897)
Oh gosh.

Donna C. Owens (36:56.174)
the relaxation that happens. And then to come back with, there are also a lot of videos. There are some podcasts. There are some really short pieces in here. Prioritize, if listening to someone, like I don't listen to podcasts because I have a hard time just listening if I'm not seeing the person interacting. So I, but I tell the students, if that's the way that you're gonna,

MVK (37:20.095)
Mm-hmm.

Donna C. Owens (37:24.942)
grab onto these topics, prioritize the podcast, prioritize the video, or, you know, prioritize the piece that is going to speak most to you that you're going to get the most out of. And then we'll work around and work through some of the other things in other ways. I'm going to read all the stuff so you don't have to read it all.

MVK (37:29.097)
Yes.

MVK (37:44.368)
Hmm.

MVK (37:47.598)
Because you're going to bring it in as you're facilitating. Is that right? Somehow. The weaving. The weaving of the pieces. Yeah. You know, as an educator and specifically in the course that you're teaching this semester and consistently teach, it sounds like, as a human, heartache and heartbreak is a part of our lives. And, you know, whether it's

Donna C. Owens (37:51.254)
Somehow, yes, absolutely. It's the weaving.

MVK (38:17.074)
loss or breakups or internal challenges, you know, intrusive thoughts and or conflict in the space or grades. You know, there's just so many ways that heartache and heartbreak shows up in our lives and then also in the classroom. And I'm wondering if you could speak to how does heartache and heartbreak show up in your classroom?

Donna C. Owens (38:41.698)
So in this particular course, like I said, it's about growing, it's about growth. And it's not easy and there's always pain, I think, in growing. So students are learning about themselves, they're learning about their family and cultural histories. And sometimes for the first time, students are

confronting realities that they hadn't thought about before. And confronting how they existed in the world or how they've been in the world. So as they confront these things, they're like looking at their biases, they're looking at internalized oppressions, they're looking at their family histories. And there's all, I feel like there is a heartache and heartbreak in that journey. And that I,

And I also feel like there's a necessity for it in order for people to grow. Because you have to be able to, you have to be able to build some empathy and to have some cultural humility in order to continue in the work. You know, if you're going to be,

a therapist and you are going to have to be able to work, unless you only work with yourself, people who are exactly like you, you're going to have to work with people who are different in a variety of ways. And I think learning how to do that is tough for everybody, regardless of their particular backgrounds. And that in that...

MVK (40:24.643)
Yes.

Donna C. Owens (40:36.354)
learning to do that, that there's a heartache. I think there's heartache in learning about other people's oppressions or the way that people have been forced to be in the world. And I think there's a heartbreak in realizing when we've been complicit in that, in our own past. So I think in this course specifically that it's necessary.

MVK (40:59.054)
Mm.

Donna C. Owens (41:06.874)
As the instructor, I think my job is to be committed to being on that journey with each and every student. So whether there are 12 students in the class or there's 18 students in the class, I'm committed to being on that journey with them, you know, as a witness, as a guide, as a companion, like that has to be because they need, I think we grow.

in that type of space with assistance. You know, it's really hard to just do that growth and learning in a vacuum or in a, you know, I'm just here in my little world learning and growing. It's like, am I really though? Is it in the space with someone else? Is there someone who's witnessing and joining me on this journey to kind of help me to grow, to help me grieve?

Right? So, I mean, I think there's grieving in that heartache and heartbreak as well. And that, you know, sometimes I, sometimes it's very, it's very present for students, that grief, that the heartache and then the grief. And then other times, you know, there's glimpses of it. So, I, but I think it's always there.

MVK (42:04.034)
Yeah.

MVK (42:15.182)
Mm.

MVK (42:23.034)
Mm hmm. I appreciate hearing that spectrum. Like you can feel into the bits of it and then also it can be just thick. And the ancestral grief that comes into the space, I imagine can be palpable at times as well.

Donna C. Owens (42:32.718)
Right.

Donna C. Owens (42:39.154)
Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely.

MVK (42:43.322)
Yeah, it makes me think of while you were talking about heartache and heartbreak really being actually necessary for growth, it makes me think of how, you know, as trees grow and the wind moves them, the fibers inside break, right? And then they have to strengthen and get thicker. And that's what it makes me think of, right? The strengthening of a tree as it grows up.

Donna C. Owens (43:06.926)
Right, right. And then, you know, and I think in that growing of the tree, right, there's things that break and fall off. And then, you know, it's like, that's, we're done with this branch. This branch has fallen off and that's okay.

MVK (43:14.638)
True.

MVK (43:19.612)
Boom! (Laughter)

Donna C. Owens (43:23.938)
But there's the healing that has to happen where that branch fell off, right? And there's, so, and I think that that's, I think the tree growing is an excellent metaphor for what happens in that space.

MVK (43:37.534)
Yeah, it's really helped me feel about and think about heartache and heartbreak as a strengthening component, you know, in my growing process and in other people's growing process too. And I heard you speak to humility. How do you interact with, I guess interact isn't the right word, how do you encourage humility as an educator? How do you know that humility is being offered or experienced?

Donna C. Owens (43:49.15)
Yeah.

MVK (44:08.516)
How do you know?

MVK (44:13.331)
Okay.

Donna C. Owens (44:15.502)
particular course, and I talk about this course a lot because I teach this course a lot every year and I'm the mentor for the course, so I mentor the other instructors who are teaching the course. It really starts at the beginning, right? So we introduce students to kind of this notion of intellectual humility, right? And sitting in this space where of...

MVK (44:20.407)
Yeah.

Donna C. Owens (44:45.326)
of kind of welcoming curiosity. And so first you start with curiosity. You're like, how am I gonna learn? You know, I can't just, you know, I can, I'm not gonna grow if I just put up barriers all along the way, but you know, kind of starting in this space of open intellectual humility. And then I asked for humility students, like explicitly at different points in time.

So around language is one of that's really important. So language, the terminologies that we use to describe people changes so rapidly. One of the things that I tell students is like, yeah, we need to interact with this with humility as well, because we have to understand that, you might be reading an article that's only two years old.

But if it's a research article, they did that research maybe five, 10 years before that. And that language changes and that we don't get hung up on semantics that gets in the way of us learning and growing. So to always kind of practice that humility and then bringing it forward to working with clients. We do client case studies in this class. We do a case study and the student has their same case study for the entirety of the semester.

So how do you approach your client with humility? So there's the humility in I need to learn but I'm not going to make the client my teacher. There's a lot of intellectual humility but also kind of this cultural humility of my cultural frame.

MVK (46:25.75)
Mm.

Donna C. Owens (46:38.83)
is not the cultural frame for everybody. And actually my cultural frame is probably not the cultural frame for anybody else other than me. Because no one else is me and no one else has had my experiences. So really kind of going.

practicing humility from saying, I know this because this is who I am and this is where I've come from, but how can I know this? How can I learn about my clients? How can I learn about my peers in different ways because I'm gonna need to, you just have to do that. And so I think you can't come out of this course in a way that's

shows that you're learning and growing without having a lot of humility.

MVK (47:30.774)
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And I imagine too, like that, that experience of realizing is also like you were saying before, is part of the conflict that shows up as part of the heartache that shows up. I mean, the body's experience of information that may be threatening to one's perspective, right, can be big.

Donna C. Owens (47:52.974)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (47:58.698)
you know, and it can be like this, or it can be like this, you know, I'm making movements. So it could be like, you know, anger and defensive or like hiding and retreating, right?

Donna C. Owens (47:58.711)
Yes.

Donna C. Owens (48:02.311)
Yes, yes!

Donna C. Owens (48:11.182)
Or, you know, it's that, again, like we, I have students sometimes, you know, it's like respond to a questionnaire from the perspective of their client. And, you know, the ones that I, you can feel and you can see it's like a student, the other student is the interviewer and how they back away from them because they're beginning to experience that and experience kind of where the client was. And...

So then having them kind of think about, so your physical being, what was it like to be responding as though you were this person? What did that feel like in your body? And then, and I think that you're right, that's another way of experiencing kind of that cultural humility and being able to connect with someone who's not you.

MVK (49:07.998)
Right, which is everybody. As far as I know. No.

Donna C. Owens (49:10.366)
Everybody. Nobody is me. Some days I'm not me, like really. Ha ha ha.

MVK (49:16.29)
It's a practice. It's a practice some days. You know, you are working so intimately with students to help grow, help hold, to be prepared for a field that can be challenging in many ways. And I'm wondering how the system of

higher ed, right, holds you. I'm wondering about what challenges, what challenges you face working in higher ed. Yeah.

Donna C. Owens (49:50.632)
Oh f-

Donna C. Owens (49:55.49)
Yeah, yeah.

So for many years, like prior to 2020, if you had asked me this question, I was like, higher ed is not challenging me at all because I'm an adjunct and I'm coming on campus, I do my thing, I look at my bank and they paid me, right? So it's like, I am engaged with my students and doing the work, but I'm not.

I'm not impacted in the same way. And I think, you know, as I've moved from that to more core positions that really kind of looking at the discrepancies, I think, between people, you know, in different aspects of, and the priorities that folks have. So, you know, you have, you're first to start with the students who are taking the course. They have expectations. They have things that they're,

believing that should be happening in their course. And then the instructor who's teaching the course, and then we have the people who are responsible for developing the course. And do we have the same priority, right? So for me, being a course mentor, it's like really meeting with the instructors and talking about what are the ways we can change, improve and grow this course, and how are we on the same page in the same understanding of what this course is supposed to be.

But then you have the department that you're in and like how is the department, what are the priorities for the department, right, you know, we've been pretty fortunate. So social justice is very prominent part of the work that we do. So it's It's one of the things that kind of leads us and this course is one of those courses where we say, you know, you take this course and your first semester, but there should be threads of it throughout. Right. And then

MVK (51:53.698)
Absolutely.

Donna C. Owens (51:54.858)
You know, so the field has requirements, the field has regulations. You know, we're training people to be mental health counselors. They wanna get licensed. There are things that have to be there. And then of course you have the administration of the university. So sometimes it seems like their priorities aren't the same. And sometimes it's like, yep, we're kind of on the same page. So I think the challenges, I think there can be a lot of challenges and I think it ebbs and flows of

how much of a challenge it is. I tend to be a, I'm, this is the course and this is what we're doing and we're pushing forward and we're pushing through because we have a responsibility to the students to make sure that they're ready and that they're prepared. So for me, it always goes back to the preparation. It's like, you know, how are these challenges, are these challenges distracting me from being able to do

MVK (52:46.71)
Yeah.

Donna C. Owens (52:54.03)
the work in the classroom. And if it is, then there's a problem. I try to make those, you know, if there's like challenges at the university level, the administrative level, I try to make those separate from what's happening in the classroom. Because if they're, they just can't impact the classroom in that way. I mean, there's gonna be impact, right? Because we're within a system, there's impact.

MVK (52:58.635)
Mm.

MVK (53:12.766)
Mm-hmm.

Donna C. Owens (53:24.518)
trying to make sure that I'm kind of a, I'm building a boundary for the students within the classroom so that doesn't seep in and really kind of taint the process.

MVK (53:42.194)
I hear that that's the word that was coming up as you were talking. It was boundary, the boundary for the group as well as inside of yourself. I imagine, you know, being able to like bracket off whatever it is and then enter in fully.

Donna C. Owens (53:52.31)
us.

Donna C. Owens (53:57.874)
Yes, yes. And I definitely believe in fully showing up as who I am in all spaces, but especially in the classroom and then fully showing up in the classroom as, you know, this is our space. You know, this is my space in your space together and I think that if I'm distracted, then I'm not doing

MVK (54:03.862)
Yeah.

MVK (54:08.451)
need to.

Donna C. Owens (54:26.794)
the topic justice. I'm not really preparing the students in the way that I should.

MVK (54:31.734)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And therein is your commitment to the work as an educator, is to be present in the space and to follow through with the agreements that you've set, it sounds like.

Donna C. Owens (54:40.745)
Yeah.

Donna C. Owens (54:45.427)
Absolutely, yes.

MVK (54:48.17)
Well, I would love to close with hearing about your love for poetry and how it shows up in your work, in your self-care, and how you evaluate the work that you're doing. I'd love to hear a little bit about that.

Donna C. Owens (55:08.37)
Wow, oh, that's a big question. So, my love for poetry. So, one of the things that I did this year, I will tell you, because I found myself feeling kind of, I don't know, antsy, like on edge. And, you know, I'm a learner. I need to be learning things like all the time. But the other part that was missing for me was this creative outlet. So, I signed up for a group.

MVK (55:10.615)
Hahaha

Donna C. Owens (55:37.302)
That's like an eight week poetry writing group. We meet every week on Monday afternoon, the middle of the day. It's like I'm not working for this couple hours on Monday because I'm writing poetry with some other folks. So for me that was the thing and then I feel like that has, I feel a tremendous shift in my ability to be because I'm not on edge like I was.

needing that extra creative outlet. And my particular poetry right now, I'm immersed in reading and responding to Psalms. And so that's the other thing that I spend my time doing is reading and writing Psalms or responding to the Psalms. And those are the, you know, that's the poetry that's, that's

MVK (56:30.338)
Wow.

Donna C. Owens (56:36.554)
got me hooked at the moment. So yeah. Embracing the fact that I need that poetry to kind of be

space that I can breathe into, I don't know. Breathe, it helps breathing somehow. The breath is somehow important in the poetry and I think it's the cadence of the rhythm of the words, the cadence, the ability to breathe for that couple of hours a week and knowing that nothing else is disturbing that time and that I have that space.

And it's a great way to start the week. The fact that it's on Monday is fabulous.

MVK (57:23.507)
That's so rich, the work that you're doing and also how you're using it to support yourself as an educator, as a student affairs supervisor, as you know, or advisor, all the things that you hold. You are also allowing poetry to hold you too.

Donna C. Owens (57:42.838)
Yes, yes. And sometimes visual art, I found myself sometimes when I'm reviewing students projects that I draw, that it's like, sometimes it's words on a page, but like the image creation, right? So that it's another way for me to process. Yeah.

MVK (57:46.188)
Yeah.

MVK (58:03.958)
Yeah. Well, it's been a real delight interviewing you and hearing about how you do what you do. Really inspiring. And I imagine you have inspired many, many students over these last many years.

Donna C. Owens (58:21.934)
This is like, uh, decades. It's been a while. Well, thank you. I've really enjoyed talking about it. I didn't think I would enjoy talking about my teaching that much, but you know, here we are.

MVK (58:24.362)
Yeah, many years.

MVK (58:29.128)
Yeah.

MVK (58:33.461)
Well, I'm glad.

MVK (58:38.034)
I'm gonna stop recording.