Cashel Campbell Interview: Authentic & Clear

Cashel Campbell MS, BC-DMT, LCAT is a trauma informed Dance/Movement Psychotherapist. She is the creator/owner of Feel Heal Dance, an embodied, intuitive & psychodynamic private practice. Currently, her clinical perspectives are focused on the integration of pole dance and Dance/Movement Therapy as an intervention for body violence survivors. Board certified & licensed in New York State, Cashel provides individual & group sessions, clinical supervision & is a guest faculty member (Pratt Institute & Sarah Lawrence College). Cashel leads with compassion & maintains a clinical approach that incorporates empathy, joyful expression and connectivity utilizing dance and movement, through an indigenously rich lens that embodies social justice.

Transcript

MVK (00:02.498)
So I am really excited to welcome Cashel Campbell to the Boundaries and Belonging podcast today. Welcome. I, yes, I'm really looking forward to hearing about how your professional and personal experience inform you as an educator and your practice as an educator. You are a dance movement therapist located in New York.

Cashel Campbell (00:12.006)
Thank you.

MVK (00:29.27)
and a guest teacher at Adelphi and Pratt Institute and Sarah Lawrence College. I would love to start with hearing how

boundaries, like thinking about boundaries and how that informs your teaching practice, as well as where does belonging show up in this work as an educator in a classroom or virtual or in person.

Cashel Campbell (01:00.834)
Yeah, I mean, first of all, thank you for having me and inviting me. This is refreshing. I'm always interested in engaging in new thought and conversation and dialogue about this work and these topics. So I'm happy to be here. Um, and how broad? Wow. I mean, I think the first thing that comes to my mind from the belonging part is how much school.

and its design versus its intention at times is a place for belonging. Whether I realize it, you realize it, they realize it or not. And I think the complexities around human beings and the nature and tendencies of what happens when groups of people get together dictate the feelings that often are created whereas it relates to belonging or not.

But knowing that institutions are at best really designed to create a sense of belonging is something that I've been sitting with, particularly this semester quite a bit and seeing how it shows up in my professional personal life and within the classroom. I think boundaries have a very similar constitution.

both of these things, you know, I'm a dance movement, psychotherapist, a creative arts therapist. So I work a lot within the embodied experience, the somatic experience, the non, the tactile and the non-tactile parts of our being as humans. And one of the things that the boundaries, I think, offers in the lived experience, again, is this,

design of structure, this design of safety. Even the institution itself is in a building. That's a boundary. And that boundary comes with ID. It says that you can be on the campus or not. So I think that there's this unknown part of both boundaries and belonging that has physical representations in the world. And I think that's more

MVK (02:56.643)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (03:25.542)
favored for cognitive thinking, for ego thinking, but I think that really the necessity for the human experience is about the internal experience of that, the integrated experience of that. So I know that's a large, but that's just how I feel it in me.

MVK (03:30.091)
Mm.

MVK (03:41.292)
Mmm.

MVK (03:46.446)
Yeah, I really appreciate that. Because it is a large question. And it's both like a macro question, like you answered it, as well as micro, interpersonal and internal. And how, as educators, how do we support the experience of belonging in our classrooms? And also, how do we implement, communicate about, model boundaries as well? Like this.

And sometimes, as we all know, boundaries can be not received well, right? Because maybe it's not the expansiveness or perhaps the entitlement that somebody else is used to or wants. So I just appreciate the macro and the micro around boundaries and belonging, because it's just woven throughout this work. Yeah. I'm curious if you want to tell us a little bit about

Cashel Campbell (04:38.735)
Yes.

MVK (04:44.054)
your journey to become a teacher in these fields. And yeah, what that's looked like, what you love about it, anything that you wanna share.

Cashel Campbell (04:55.466)
Yeah, sure. I mean, I went to Pratt Institute and undergrad, not undergrad, I went to SUNY Purchase and undergrad, and before that I went to Nassau Community College. But I have to say, I didn't start off as a person or an educator with some grand desire to be an academic, a teacher, none of that was in my realm of thinking. Although my first vision board that I did, I think I was about 24.

And I remember taping a college graduation picture on this board. But at that point, I had already graduated undergrad, and I had no intentions of going to graduate school. And so I remember, I always think about that because I'm like, I didn't plan on any of this. I remember when I chose that picture, I was like, what are you putting that there for? You're not going back, you know? But

MVK (05:51.792)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (05:53.474)
you know, maybe my spirit, I'm sure my spirit knew something deeper. Um, you know, I started out to become a therapist because I had been in therapy and I had a very charted course of my own and I recognized how, how beautiful the therapeutic space was and how possible and how freeing it was. Um, a young woman that grew up in an environment.

MVK (05:56.994)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (06:22.746)
that was suburban and multicultural to a degree. And

Cashel Campbell (06:33.274)
But representation in the 90s, which is when I grew up, was not a thing. It was this very like colorless, I look at like a dissociative response to racism from the 30 years that preceded the time. And it had its benefits in one way. We all enjoyed the same music and hip hop and Green Day alike. And so that's one end of like.

MVK (06:38.67)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (06:51.712)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (07:01.966)
you know, cultural immersion and non-distinction. And on the other end, to me, it left a lot of loopholes about my identity. And I think therapy was a place that I was offered an opportunity to find my identity as not only a woman, a black woman, as a person, as a sensitive, an HSP, a highly sensitive person. So I found that space just very freeing and I didn't know it was a space. And so then I wanted to go out and...

and do the same. And so I went to Pratt Institute for my grad degree. And I remember, funny enough, because this is something that just landed for me recently, is how much Pratt offered me belonging. And I hadn't had those words. It's a good thing we're having this interview today, because I actually landed on that knowledge last week. It really kind of, I mean, I think I felt it. I knew it. But.

MVK (07:48.814)
Good thing.

MVK (07:52.27)
Wow.

MVK (07:57.485)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (07:58.022)
for it to like escape my mouth. I think that I landed on that last week and really had a very deep emotional experience about the gratitude I had for the people that I met in my program there in creative arts therapy, dance therapy, the teachers that I had, the mentors that I had, the provocation for thought, the challenge. I felt like I belonged in a way that I had been yearning for and didn't really know existed, but hoped for.

MVK (08:00.009)
Yeah.

MVK (08:18.168)
Hmm.

MVK (08:27.041)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (08:27.77)
Um, and so I think when that happened during my studies and, and prior to my study, so post undergrad and pre enduring, um, graduate studies, I was a dance teacher, I taught belly dance, I taught sensual movements, uh, burlesque, you know, a lot of different things. Poll. Um,

And I had a passion for teaching when I was teaching dance. I was so excited to be a part of people's body stories. And all of these people would come into class and it was so rich. I mean, they would leave the class and then be like, oh my God, I feel community. I feel I'm remembering parts of myself that I forgot. I look forward to this. This is the highlight of my week. I mean, and I have chills. I was like, oh my God, this is so great. Who knew? And I think that once I found that sense of belonging at Pratt.

It was this natural eureka that kind of came in when I graduated where I was like, I wanna teach. Cause I had the experience of teaching in movements from before. And then the sense of belonging and these theoretical approaches and understandings about psychology, the body and the brain, the body, and emotion and spirit. And I was like, I wanna teach. And so one of my...

teachers at Pratt. I hope she's okay that I say her name, Joan Woodig. She was one of my teachers. And she really challenged me quite a bit when I was learning. And I appreciate her challenging me because it brought out the best in me. And so I went to her, you know, a year or two after I graduated, or maybe that same year and said, you know, I have an interest in teaching if you ever...

would allow me to come in, you know, sub a class or guest teach. I would really love that. And she was like, sure, yes. And so for a couple of years she would, I was sub classes for her and, um, you know, and simultaneously I was working clinically, working in, um, for the state of New York. I worked in, um, New York city health and hospitals and Rikers Island. I worked at Kings book Jewish medical palliative care with children and babies.

Cashel Campbell (10:50.414)
So I was doing a lot of clinical rounds and she kept inviting me and it was so encouraging because the credentials needed to teach, I didn't have in place yet, I was still working on that. And so once the my credentials came through, I was able to apply to positions in more than one institution and was very pleased and grateful that they said yes and it's been that.

since then, it's been a very rewarding and rich experience, not just for, that's an assumption, for what the students feel, can't speak for them, but I know for me, I feel so honored, blessed, and informed by being able to witness people have their internal lights turned on.

MVK (11:32.918)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Cashel Campbell (11:44.994)
and be inspired to be versions of themselves that they didn't know existed.

MVK (11:50.618)
I really resonate with so much of what you shared from finding or experiencing belonging as a student in a creative arts program, and then to being so like joyfully inspired to participate as a facilitator of the education, right, joining with, feeling with, dancing with, I just deeply resonate with that.

Cashel Campbell (12:10.81)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (12:15.42)
Yes.

Thank you. Yeah.

MVK (12:20.583)
Yeah, because it really is an honor, you know?

Cashel Campbell (12:23.694)
Yes. I hold that space with such deep respect because, you know, I feel like when I think about people who are parents to small children or even for when we were small children, people tend to, in general, of all walks of life, be very enamored with those first, you know, baby one, two, three, four, five, six, seven years. And in reality, I...

I feel very connected to the aspect of inner child, you know, of us always being that child, we just stretch, right? And so the witnessing aspect to that doesn't, to me, doesn't go away because we're no longer cute, right? So, you know, I think it's important to recognize in education and teaching that we are being allowed to witness people at particular milestones of their life.

MVK (13:05.294)
Mm-hmm

MVK (13:18.582)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (13:19.118)
that are not reversible, that are linear, that are spontaneous, and know that some part of that relating is going to stay with them forever and vice versa. So I have a lot of respect for it. And I think as I'm saying this to you, I still remember my kindergarten teacher, Mrs. Silverstein. I still remember my first grade teacher, Mrs. Piccioni.

MVK (13:48.994)
Mm.

Cashel Campbell (13:49.122)
And Mrs. Carter, my second grade teacher. I mean, they were great teachers. They were great women. They were great people. I will never forget them. So I feel like having that kind of nurturance and challenge is something that I wanna bring into the classroom and in education.

MVK (13:53.174)
Yeah.

MVK (13:56.844)
Yeah.

MVK (14:07.714)
Mm-hmm. Yes, and that lineage of being part of school systems and being taught, you know, it's hard to... Sometimes I think that as educators, we forget that all of our students, or maybe some, I'll speak for myself. Sometimes I have forgotten about the lineage of education that each of my students have experienced. And some of that is really beautiful, right? Like you're sharing from remembering

Cashel Campbell (14:24.717)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (14:32.442)
Yes.

MVK (14:36.822)
these women who clearly held you in a way that felt good. And then of course, there's like folks who've had the opposite experience, right? For their whole, perhaps their whole school journey or perhaps the interaction of being in school and coming home, code switching between these two spaces and whatever that looked like, right? And I think that that's another important piece that we...

Cashel Campbell (14:40.742)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (14:46.551)
Yes, yes.

Yes.

Cashel Campbell (15:01.406)
Yes.

MVK (15:06.45)
either consciously or unconsciously hold as educators is this lineage of education that just comes with all of our students and comes with us, right? We're just kind of holding all of this.

Cashel Campbell (15:12.114)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (15:15.778)
Yes. Yeah. And so much of what you're saying too, I think about like the consciousness of that. I don't think I was really conscious of that until we're having this conversation right now. I knew it in this internal sense, but yeah, when I'm in that room with them and they're in that room with me, it is a continuation on a story versus like the beginning of something.

MVK (15:43.358)
Yes. Oh, yeah, I love that. And I it's a continuation of the story. And there and also is that honor like you were talking about, where we get to be this, you know, kind of important, sometimes really important, sometimes maybe just a blip. But like in this important part of their journey, we get to be a part of it. You know? Yeah, yeah. I'm.

Cashel Campbell (15:58.62)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (16:03.874)
Yes, it's true. Yeah.

MVK (16:10.55)
I'm curious, how would you describe your teaching frame? Like what's your agenda as a teacher? What are some of the explicit agreements or norms that you speak to with your students?

Cashel Campbell (16:25.218)
Yeah, I think that, well, the main thing is for my style of teaching is that it is very improv reliance, very spontaneous reliant I go into teaching, I teach on Wednesdays, a consistent class, and then I sub throughout the year. But like, for instance, since this is a Monday, I've begun thinking about Wednesday's class.

MVK (16:37.711)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (16:54.574)
since probably last night and thinking about the topic. And I'm thinking, this is just my creative process. Like when I'm watching TV over the weekend, I went to the museum yesterday, I'm thinking about the topic and I'm bringing it with me in all these other ways of my life, when I'm cooking and all that, because I'm investigating where that topic lives in the body for me.

And how can I offer that experience in the classroom for others to identify where it might live in their body? So that it's not just this static experience of what's written or what was told or heard of, but being able to really concretely identify what is my experience with this week's topic is theoretical perspectives, right? What's my experience with that? I use a lot of metaphors when I teach. A lot of relativity.

for understanding so that again, it's not just having to be interpreted as what is written or only what is created, but how might what's being proposed be better understood in someone's culture, better understood in someone's gender identity, better understood in someone's disability. What does that mean for them? I teach from a very...

MVK (18:04.542)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (18:18.202)
Now this leans into the boundary piece because I do have intent boundaries. Boundaries are really important to me. I think because of my race, that the way boundaries might be experienced from me to others is in a sense non-invitational. But that's not true. I think that's the projected value.

MVK (18:34.69)
Hmm.

Cashel Campbell (18:46.782)
on what it means to engage with black women with strong boundaries. That has nothing to do with me because in fact, I prefer to be challenged and questioned. I prefer to be leaned in toward. But a lot of times it takes a particular type of student to really go there. And I do have a rotating, you know, a rotating feeling of joy.

MVK (18:56.099)
Hmm.

MVK (19:03.906)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (19:11.829)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (19:15.978)
It rotates on the axis of joy. Some days it's like, what the hell? Yeah, right, this one. This is rotating like, you know, I'm inspired by those students who will press because I want them to press because this is the, because to me, education is the place for that. That is the place to not necessarily just take in what's given to you, but to challenge it too.

MVK (19:17.366)
Like this.

MVK (19:24.344)
Ah!

Cashel Campbell (19:46.058)
And also to learn how to be digested on the things that are static and are what they are, right? So I like a lot of fun in my space. I like a lot of decompression in my space, time, space. I think it's also important to offer acceptance. I offer acceptance in my classroom, however you are, whoever you are.

MVK (19:52.883)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (20:15.554)
whatever you are and I say what I mean whatever state of life, state of mind, whatever that is. Acceptance is something that I try to lead with because I want students to have a feeling of belonging as they are.

MVK (20:29.606)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (20:33.586)
Crying one day, angry the next, temperamental, cranky, happy, hyper, whatever, it's fine. Because I feel like we learn best in general as human beings when we feel safe. And acceptance to me is about feeling safe and welcome to be there.

MVK (20:46.862)
course.

MVK (20:51.578)
Mm, so much in what you said. I'm going to see if I can like, do, figure out where to go next. I, gosh. So there's this piece around a safe enough space, which I think that word safety gets used in ways that it can be weaponized in our fields and in our educational system and higher

Cashel Campbell (20:56.76)
Yeah.

MVK (21:22.446)
teachers can assume safety of the class and kind of feel entitled to student safety, which can be really problematic. And then this other piece, which I am really grateful that you brought in around your boundaries as a human and some of the projection that you've received as a woman of African descent, as a woman of Caribbean descent.

Cashel Campbell (21:35.282)
There's one.

MVK (21:52.638)
um, in a space that I'm imagining in some of the spaces, like, because you're in New York, there's just, there's a lot more. This is, this is an assumption. So tell me if I'm wrong. But my assumption is the classrooms are a lot more diverse culturally than the classrooms in Santa Fe. That's my assumption. Um, tell me, am I, am I wrong? I'm wrong.

Cashel Campbell (21:58.886)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (22:18.17)
You know what? The word wrong is so wrong for this. I think... I'm gonna go in lovingly and say, we are in different times. We are in different times. I think I'm very surprised to see the racial composition of the classroom.

MVK (22:22.13)
Okay, I appreciate that. I appreciate that, thank you. What is, okay.

MVK (22:36.427)
Okay.

MVK (22:46.285)
Okay.

Cashel Campbell (22:46.882)
Um, it's, it's not as diverse as I thought it would be. And the students tend to feel the same. You know, they come into the space and they're like, I thought this would have been more diverse and it's yeah, it's not. And, and, and so to me that even, you know, not to veer off, but just to kind of go into that space of like the differentiation where it relates to race and culture, there's still some type of non-acceptance, something's happening.

MVK (22:52.403)
Yep, that's my ex-

MVK (22:57.378)
Where is everybody?

MVK (23:05.087)
Yes.

MVK (23:14.981)
Mmm.

Cashel Campbell (23:16.278)
What I don't know, whether that's non-acceptance based on the application, finance, maybe it's a communal non-acceptance of thinking I don't belong there. It could be a lot of different things. But no, the diversity is not there.

MVK (23:17.24)
Mmm.

MVK (23:27.79)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (23:31.886)
Okay, so would you say that the majority of your students are either white identifying or white passing?

Cashel Campbell (23:40.738)
white passing, white identifying cisgendered.

MVK (23:43.478)
Okay, okay. And how about sexuality? Would you say that there is a mix of queer and hetero folks?

Cashel Campbell (23:54.371)
I would say there's more of a mix of queer and hetero. Yeah.

MVK (23:57.094)
Okay, and neurodivergence and neurotypical?

Cashel Campbell (24:01.314)
and neurodiversions and neurotypical yes, but racially seems to be the more yes.

MVK (24:03.686)
Okay, more of a... Yeah, that's hard. I mean, I heard you say before how you were talking about representation. And I imagine that it's just as important to have teachers of color as it is to have students of color.

Cashel Campbell (24:30.079)
Yes.

MVK (24:30.398)
Right, to have that kind of bilateral representation within the group. Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (24:33.21)
Yes. Yeah, I agree 100% because when we talk about belonging, you know, the meeting that I was on prior to this meeting, I was sharing with my dance therapy supervisor that

MVK (24:46.274)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (24:56.386)
I've been able to kind of have a somatic sourcing of how I experience racism in my body. And that's something that's new to me and I appreciate it. But it's something that's a signaling that helps me navigate the world better. That I didn't really, that's been here. I just didn't know what to label it. And I was sharing with her that so much of how I see this work is through an ancestral

MVK (25:02.155)
Yeah.

MVK (25:05.422)
Mm.

MVK (25:11.299)
Mmm.

Cashel Campbell (25:26.21)
African Caribbean ancestral perspective that leads from the spirit that leads from faith that leads from looking at science and faith as one not a separate and You know as a spiritualist and an educator an academic a professor as clinical supervisor all those things It's important for me to lead with honesty when I'm in these spaces in these education spaces, and I think that

MVK (25:32.767)
Yeah.

MVK (25:36.17)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (25:58.478)
more of the ancestral call of people who are like myself or similar is to be able to, how can we get them physically in the room? Because the work that needs to be done, I feel like the anti-racist work that needs to be done in the classroom, in the institution, really starts with the people in the community, in the classroom. You need all the voices.

MVK (26:20.715)
Yes.

MVK (26:25.12)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (26:26.786)
Otherwise, we're still sitting in a margin. And, and, and there's nothing, and I also feel there's nothing wrong with that margin because it's useful, but what is important to impact the margin is honesty. And I think that's the place that not having the physical numbers and representation affects so much because quite frankly, if someone is racist, let's say.

MVK (26:36.022)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (26:44.364)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (26:55.862)
I don't have a problem with you or her or him or they. If you're racist, that's just something you're experiencing that probably needs more information. What I would wanna see in the classroom is a representation of that, of naming of self, of naming the racism that's inside the body, that's inside the mind, talking about my identity as a racist, right? And being informed and educated by your peers.

MVK (26:57.514)
Mm.

MVK (27:03.914)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (27:12.705)
Woo!

MVK (27:16.128)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (27:24.194)
on their anti-racism or them being in between. Just more honest dialogue.

MVK (27:29.174)
Mm, I love that. And I can feel in my body my experience with students and the anxiety of many white identifying students around honesty, around speaking, around making mistakes. So perfectionism and that internalized colonialism around how

Cashel Campbell (27:45.03)
Yes.

Yes.

Cashel Campbell (27:53.692)
Yes.

MVK (27:56.802)
to show up right, right? Bring right and wrong back in. Thank you.

Cashel Campbell (28:00.616)
That's right. But that's a part of that hierarchy. So it's on task. Yeah.

MVK (28:05.122)
Yeah. Yeah, it is on task. I, you know, I, I feel like in with the racialized conversations, that's not the really way I want to say the racialized like,

Cashel Campbell (28:25.881)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (28:34.847)
Yes.

MVK (28:35.442)
of being in conversation, right? So this place of, I am gonna hold this space and be here, and I'm gonna be flexible and move. I'm gonna offer my nervous system, and I'm also gonna ground myself in it as a facilitator. And I actually can't guarantee safety, kinda back to what we were talking about before. I can't say, hey,

Cashel Campbell (28:37.628)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (28:44.91)
Yes.

MVK (28:58.306)
this is a safe space because it's really up to their nervous systems and their mind process, whether they're safe or not. And so it's this really interesting movement around how do I include and challenge, right? So when something comes up in the classroom that is like, oh, that's from a real deep place of bias, I believe it's my responsibility to...

Cashel Campbell (29:04.599)
Yes. That's right.

Cashel Campbell (29:15.654)
Yes.

MVK (29:27.318)
you know, put a little, what is this? A flashlight on it in a way that's like, all right, come here, come here, and we're gonna do this, but we're here, we're here together, you know?

Cashel Campbell (29:31.942)
Yeah. Yes.

Cashel Campbell (29:35.446)
Yes, yes, right, right. That's right. That's you, that's that physical gesture is really, that really is the thing. And I think it's so interesting because when it really boils down to it, what I'm hearing you say and reliving and remembering in my own experience as a person and a professional is this tolerance of our own emotional experiencing.

MVK (30:02.03)
Hmm. Yes.

Cashel Campbell (30:04.398)
It's really just that simple. Like, how much can I tolerate of my own truth in the company of other people? And that truth is sometimes hard to take on alone, much less in the sight of others in a classroom space.

MVK (30:11.019)
Yeah.

MVK (30:19.638)
Really, truly. Yeah, and that is where the belonging comes in, right? So if I feel like I belong here and I trust you, then maybe it's okay to not know everything. Maybe it's okay to actually realize, be witnessed in realizing that I've got some work to do. You know, and we all do. I mean, I think that is an important truth that-

Cashel Campbell (30:24.366)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (30:32.858)
Yes, that's right.

Cashel Campbell (30:39.089)
Yes.

That's right. Yep. Yes.

MVK (30:50.124)
I really try to weave in over and over and over again, you know?

Cashel Campbell (30:52.866)
Yes, yes, I agree 100%. And you saying that makes me think about something that I have to remind myself a lot of times in the education space and in the teacher space is remembering how long the bridge is between where I am and where these students are going. In one way, we're literally on the same piece of land, right? As humans, as beings.

MVK (31:04.77)
Hmm.

MVK (31:14.079)
Yes.

MVK (31:20.37)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (31:21.182)
regionally wherever we're from, but as far as the capacity for time to influence whatever is being taught on their life in person, the bridge is long. And I remember when I was getting my hours to become a licensed creative arts therapist, there was many times I almost gave up a lot of times because it wasn't easy for me. I had to keep changing jobs. I had medical issues.

MVK (31:22.954)
Mm.

MVK (31:34.186)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (31:49.366)
I'm never a divergent myself. I have chronic illnesses that I live with. PTSD is one of them. It was a challenge. And so I quit, I almost quit many times. Then I would get up and start again. And there's no amount of retelling, recanting, tests, books. Nothing can go into that experience, in place of that. And the same, I think is reflective for students that are learning.

to become psychotherapists in the field that I work in. And it's like, some of this stuff, you're just gonna have to go through your own experience and have the context of what we talked about in the classroom to relate it back to.

MVK (32:22.088)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (32:33.15)
Absolutely. And I think that when you were talking about, I'm not sure what the language was that you used, but it was really about being able to be in one's experience. The window of tolerance, being able to expand that window of tolerance so as not to go over the edge and be overwhelmed, to feel like your body is being threatened so nothing else can come in.

Cashel Campbell (32:42.906)
Yes. Yep.

Cashel Campbell (32:53.402)
Yes. Yep.

Cashel Campbell (32:58.619)
Yes.

MVK (33:02.182)
And so I'm curious, how do you support your students in self-regulation and co-regulation? What does that look like in a dance movement therapy classroom or you as a facilitator?

Cashel Campbell (33:12.932)
Yeah.

Yeah, you're telling me this. This is all on time.

MVK (33:20.736)
Yes, divine intervention.

Cashel Campbell (33:22.45)
You're so divine intervention. So at Sarah Lawrence, I teach the dynamics of group psychotherapy. And so it's a very dense, intense class. And we're at the juncture right now where it's I'm going to start introducing them to trying to figure out their role within a group dynamic. So as.

MVK (33:46.763)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (33:47.73)
conversation and emotion and conflict and all these things are happening. Can you eternally dial into am I a participant in this? Am I, should I be a leader in this or should I be a witness in this? Where do I belong in this, right? And so the way that I can teach that is by having them embody it and holding the space to, I try to open the space with every day of like you're here.

MVK (33:57.614)
Mm.

MVK (34:09.891)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (34:17.646)
or every day, every week of you're here. We're here together. This is where we are. You have a licensed and board certified therapist sitting in front of you who's also your educator, your professor. I'm not naming that for accolades. I'm naming that for your level of safety. There is nothing that's gonna go on in this space that I will not be able to handle with you. And I end on the same, right? So just to like...

MVK (34:29.367)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (34:46.63)
put it in plain language, boom, you are being navigated in a space that is contained, grounding in the same way before we go home, right? And then...

MVK (34:58.848)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (35:03.122)
last week, you know, like it was a little bit of a dial turn up on tolerance emotional tolerance and Just knowing that well, there's a level of necessity that's needed for this because You know, you all want to become psychotherapists you must be introduced to your own Internal system Right Who you're not surgeons. You're not operating on someone

You're the site first, right? So kind of turning that dial up, and now I can feel into their rhythm and the rhythm of the group in my teacher body of like, okay, now it's time to do some co-regulation. And that co-regulation is gonna start with this self-identity of who am I during these conversations. Sometimes you may have to step out the circle. Maybe you need to go in. Maybe you think you have something to offer to help.

MVK (35:33.57)
That's right.

MVK (35:48.779)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (36:01.242)
Let's begin, right? So to me, that's a sharing of authority and a sharing of power. Because I think when we feel and embody powerlessness, it's hard for us to feel regulated, right? So introducing them to this aspect of like, yes, I can drop down into my emotions and feel and see things for reality in a way that I may not have seen them before. And also depending on the role that I decide that I'm in.

MVK (36:09.12)
Yes.

MVK (36:14.868)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (36:30.35)
in relationship to that, I can choose how to titrate these experiences of powerlessness, which is necessary, of helplessness, which is necessary, of directness, of boundary, of tolerance, of intolerance. All of that, that becomes, I think, more palpable as the group grows a little bit more. And sometimes it's as simple as I have a student that this semester and last year.

MVK (36:46.685)
Mmm.

Cashel Campbell (36:58.042)
that I've shared with, you know, I've seen them go through a little bit of internal cookup in relationship to the content. So I'll say, okay, sit next to me for the class this week, sit next to me for class next week, and every week we'll check in. How did sitting next to me feel for you, right? So that you have your independence, so obviously I'm not hand holding you, not because I wouldn't want to, knowing me I would, but I can't, right? I'm here to help.

MVK (37:10.21)
Hmm

MVK (37:16.938)
I love that.

Cashel Campbell (37:27.626)
you be independent, right? So, but I want you to feel adjacent to...

MVK (37:28.05)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (37:36.09)
what's qualified to be here with you all in this way and who that person is. And that seems to work. That seems to help. Yeah, it really helps. It's like a non-invasive kind of like, yeah, you sit next to me.

MVK (37:40.398)
Hmm. I love that.

MVK (37:48.214)
Yeah. I mean, that is, I'm imagining how it could be perceived, right? If somebody's feeling insecure. And I also think about how it's used by teachers, you know, across the ages, really, to, and I don't know if it's articulated in this way, but really to share the nervous system. If you're like, sit next to me, feel me.

Cashel Campbell (38:09.222)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (38:15.394)
feel me regulated and let me help you regulate yourself. Right? Oh, it's so good. And that's also part of like the, I think, you know, it's part of our responsibility as educate, therapeutic educators, because we're not just educators, we're therapists, you know, so it's a therapeutic educational experience. Right? And so in my belief system, part of our responsibility is to be able to track.

Cashel Campbell (38:15.739)
Yes. Oh, I love that. Yes. Absolutely.

Cashel Campbell (38:28.476)
Yes.

Yes.

Cashel Campbell (38:38.299)
Yes.

MVK (38:44.21)
what's happening with our students and then to do this, like to enter into relationship to help them, you know, and not all students want it, you know, and that can show up.

Cashel Campbell (38:50.478)
Yes. Yep. Yes.

Yep. Oh yeah. Oh yes. My evaluations have shared that with me.

MVK (39:04.158)
Like, stay, like, what is it that they share? Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (39:07.63)
Yeah. I mean, you know, there's different ways I recognize of students being able to be so enmeshed with their powerlessness to not be able to identify it.

but opposed to identifying it, they project it onto. Right, so my invitation is, wherever you feel I'm short or could do better, come and tell me. I'm not gonna challenge you, this is your experience, this is your classroom, right? I'm here to listen. Whether I respond or not doesn't even matter. I'm inviting you to tell me your thoughts, right? But that seldom occurs.

MVK (39:26.419)
Yes.

MVK (39:45.25)
Yes.

MVK (39:49.216)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (39:50.374)
Like I said before, I have the outliers that I deeply appreciate who will say things like, but why? Yes, here's why. Or how come? Or I feel this and sometimes what they feel is offensive in general, but not offensive necessarily. Sometimes it is actually offensive in general and also offensive directly as it relates to race. But also...

MVK (39:58.838)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (40:20.018)
not something that's not teachable. So I appreciate it. How can we look at this and like expand it? What are other people's thoughts on this? Right? And having this person again, like sit next to me, you're not being picked on, you're not being isolated. You do need to sit in the rawness of these feelings, but also hear the voices that reflect what you're saying and how they sound, because they're not all gonna sound the same. Right? So.

MVK (40:29.285)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (40:46.323)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (40:49.09)
I think that it's just really like this dance of like, you know, when is it useful for the belonging and when is it useful for a boundary? That's really what I realized, right? Sometimes it's useful for the belonging because some of these students, other students have the same thoughts and feelings. They're just not going to say it. Some are going to wait until the evaluation and say it. And it's like, come on, I wish you could have told me this. You know what I mean? And others are just going to...

MVK (41:00.303)
Mmm. Mmm!

MVK (41:10.034)
True. Just...

Cashel Campbell (41:19.214)
You're just going to offer it one way or another. And I think that however it shows up, I think it adds to the boundary and the belonging pieces. Yeah.

MVK (41:31.022)
Absolutely. I imagine that you are an incredible model for direct communicate, like compassionate, but compassionate, compassionate direct communication. Like that's my imagining. Yeah. And I, you know, I love what you're bringing in because all of our students are, they're on their own journeys, different paces, different life experiences.

Cashel Campbell (41:42.711)
Mm-hmm. Thank you.

MVK (41:58.354)
and really very different capacities to be in relationship. Because what I hear you saying is really, like this is a relational experience that's incredibly intimate. That an intimacy, as we know, brings up all of our attachment wounds. And that happens in the classroom. And you can feel it. I mean, I can feel it as a teacher where...

Cashel Campbell (42:09.222)
Yes.

Yes. Yep.

Cashel Campbell (42:19.514)
Yes.

Yes.

Cashel Campbell (42:25.947)
Yes.

MVK (42:26.542)
Ooh, I hit up against something. And some students, you know, unfortunately, it feels unfortunate because then they're, what I've had the experience of really like, okay, did something happened and I wanna figure out how to make a repair or like let it rise. And not all people wanna do that work. Not all people wanna let it rise.

Cashel Campbell (42:29.347)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (42:36.454)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (42:50.013)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (42:54.222)
Yeah.

MVK (42:56.07)
and feel into it and then kind of let it dissipate, you know? And that's unfortunate. And then of course, there are so many students who do. There are so many students who will be like, you know, Magdalena, when you said this, it like tore my heart open. When you misgendered me, I felt so unseen and like all of the work that I've done was gone, right? And I, woo!

Cashel Campbell (43:00.898)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (43:07.343)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (43:14.734)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (43:19.803)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (43:23.163)
Yes.

MVK (43:24.618)
When that happens, I'm like, thank you and fuck. You know, like, thank you and okay. I can see, thank you for the mirror. I have some work to do with you, you know?

Cashel Campbell (43:28.546)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (43:37.634)
Right. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I mean, oh, it's

Yeah, the teaching space is just, it's, I can only imagine teaching in graduate because I feel like at that point, my assumption is that the imagery I get is almost like a corset. I feel like the bones are a little more upright and functional by that point in life, whether you're in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, it doesn't matter, right?

By the time you get to a place where you want to pursue a graduate degree, some part of you is like, right? Um, because I, I'm making that comparison because I would be probably an awful pre-K or kindergarten teacher because I, I love them so much. I love small children so much that I would be like, do whatever you want, do whatever you want, you know?

MVK (44:18.043)
Yeah.

MVK (44:28.491)
to.

Cashel Campbell (44:41.73)
Um, but yeah, I feel like there's just so much for an individual to consider when putting themselves in the position to be a graduate student and to say that I have a pursuit and then open yourself up to be taught the different ways that this pursuit can look and from different perspectives that may not mirror anything like you're accustomed to.

and have that willingness to be engaged. And I agree with you. I think it is unfortunate when I come across students that don't take the dive because really, I mean, I took the dive so that it's probably, maybe I'm biased, I don't know. But I think that, you know, taking that dive, it unveils a completely new world.

to the person. And I know it has this feeling, it feels personal, but it's really not. It's not about me. It's totally about you as the student and taking advantage of this opportunity to be fully seen, fully witnessed, fully heard, fully challenged, bound like all of it, right? And not judged at all for whatever goes on in there. And...

MVK (46:08.846)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (46:11.202)
You know, I think that I'm only, I've been guest teaching for a few years, but as far as having like my own consistent class, this is my second school year of that. And thank you. But I look forward to seeing how it goes as I move forward, because I think one of the biggest things that I think gets in the way for me in the classroom is it's race-related. I wish it wasn't in a way, because I feel like

MVK (46:21.45)
Yay. Mm-hmm.

MVK (46:35.094)
Mm.

MVK (46:38.464)
Mm.

Cashel Campbell (46:40.506)
You know, I have to, for my protection and my safety, I have to align with my authority.

MVK (46:48.79)
Yes. Wow.

Cashel Campbell (46:51.034)
have to do that and I can share that authority with you but then the basis for that is about a respect that is only navigated and deemed or approached as we relate, right? So I have to keep myself protected because even some of the institutions themselves they're racist.

MVK (47:06.518)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (47:15.163)
Uh, yes. I mean, the truth.

Cashel Campbell (47:19.834)
Yeah, it's challenging, you know, because on one end, I could feel that tension for students. Sometimes they wanna get close, but again, their own racial ambiguity and in relationship to whether it's my physical identity or the known identity of my race and culture, it creates fright for which they're not willing to be honest about. And that, yeah, it's really deep. And I, and it's.

MVK (47:45.122)
That's so deep.

Cashel Campbell (47:48.578)
I think that's unfortunate too, only because there's an, this is another opportunity. You know what I mean? Take the opportunity, so.

MVK (47:54.014)
Yeah. Oof. Real. Yeah. I love hearing how...

how centered you are in knowing that you are important, as a human and as an educator, and that your authority as you is just as important as a student's authority as them. That is also really incredible modeling, I think. And not everybody's gonna like that, because again, it's boundaries. It's like, why can't you fold for me? Why can't you?

Cashel Campbell (48:12.466)
Thank you.

Cashel Campbell (48:21.178)
Yes, yes.

Cashel Campbell (48:28.41)
Yes, yes it is. That's right.

Yes.

MVK (48:34.646)
just do it this way because that's what makes me feel more comfortable. And as we know, I mean, I love comfort. Don't get me wrong. I'm a tourist. Like I just, I'm all about comfort. And I also know that personally that it's been through trials by fire. It's been through discomfort in relationships where we have had the capacity to sit in the discomfort and be loving.

Cashel Campbell (48:36.976)
Yes.

Yes.

Cashel Campbell (48:50.651)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (49:01.638)
That's right.

MVK (49:03.902)
Um, and like, woof, God, that war, that's a war. Like I'm, I am okay. I'm actually not being threatened in this moment. You know, Ooh, it's real, real work. And the thing is we can do it. You know, it's just that practice. So much of this is practice and like really building the stamina and the capacity to be in relationship with discomfort that has a history of violence.

Cashel Campbell (49:09.574)
Yes.

Yes.

Cashel Campbell (49:18.885)
Yes. That's right. Yes.

Cashel Campbell (49:27.666)
Absolutely.

Yes.

MVK (49:33.674)
genocide and yuck, like just straight up yuck, that has been inherited in the walls of the schools interpersonally. And I mean, I think, can we say that there are schools that are not steeped in white supremacy? I don't know that we can say that. You know, I'm curious, I'm curious about, so when you're, when we're talking about this really

Cashel Campbell (49:33.742)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (49:40.43)
Yes, yes, yes.

Cashel Campbell (49:52.231)
I don't know. That's a great question. Yeah. 100%.

MVK (50:03.638)
Whew, important conflict, interpersonal conflict around seeing, like trying to see each other, but seeing through pain or seeing through bias. It brings up conflict, right, in the group and inside, whether it's inside the student or inside the facilitator. And I imagine also it brings up heartache, you know? And one of the things that...

Cashel Campbell (50:21.594)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (50:27.055)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (50:30.64)
Yes.

MVK (50:33.014)
just feels important to hold is that heartache and heartbreak are part of the group process. You know, whether it's specifically related to the interpersonal or if it's something that's being brought in, you know, from like a breakup to a parent to a loss, whatever. So how do you see it? How do you, how does heartache and heartbreak come up in your spaces as an educator and

Cashel Campbell (50:41.227)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (50:50.07)
Yes, yes, yep, yep.

Cashel Campbell (51:00.999)
Yeah.

MVK (51:02.35)
How do you move with it?

Cashel Campbell (51:05.146)
I think my mind goes specifically to a student, two, one, two, three, it's about, well, I had a big class last year. But my mind is going specifically to maybe about four or five students from last year and now.

so far about two students this year so far who have been willing to drop into their own defeat, their own heartbreak, their own fright.

MVK (51:36.517)
Mmm.

MVK (51:41.154)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (51:45.934)
On my end, I try to facilitate a lot of movement to support that. And the movement would be like, I mean, I love all kinds of music, but specifically somatically I love jazz for me really does. And I mean like across the ages, jazz from like, very early to modern. I think that there's something about the improv of jazz music that speaks to the soul.

MVK (51:54.049)
Hmm, tell me.

Cashel Campbell (52:16.178)
and the somatic resonance of us as people. And generally, I would play jazz and allow space and time for just witnessed and unwitnessed movement. It depends on the day. Maybe sometimes people want to be seen or not. But just giving people the opportunity to be together and have movement in the ways that they need is often really helpful with that process. Because.

Again, I think we can, I know I take it for granted. I take for granted how second nature this work is to me. So I forget that like the rest of the world is not speaking in these terms. You know what I mean? The rest of the world is not like crying when they teach. I cry sometimes when I teach, it's fine. It's like, whatever, you know, it's part of it. So.

MVK (52:59.574)
Like, and moving and just kind of like, let's just move that shit out, yeah.

MVK (53:12.334)
part of it.

Cashel Campbell (53:15.27)
So I think this invitation for people to just let what is be there and know that it's okay. I say it's okay a lot. I will say that. And I do also ask students, is it okay if I put my hand on your hand or is it okay if I put my hand on your back? Is it okay if I sit next to you? I would say like, those are the things that I do the most.

MVK (53:24.101)
Mmm.

Cashel Campbell (53:46.15)
And I think also because I do care, I'm a carer in general, people play, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. I can walk outside and care, I can go to training care, I'm just like that, you know. I really wanna know my students, or the students, you see, I just like own them. I really wanna know students personally too, not their personal business, but like a personal relative professional relationship. And so I think that-

MVK (53:58.146)
care.

Cashel Campbell (54:16.462)
I want to be able to be sometimes the good enough mother in the teaching space. Not always, but specifically when they're like cooked up emotionally to know that, you know what? She doesn't like to be touched when she's in that space and reminding the group of that as a support to her, you know, or they don't like direct eye contact when they're upset. So please remember, let's just lower our eyes and listen to them. Right?

MVK (54:22.751)
Mm-hmm.

MVK (54:34.338)
That's good.

MVK (54:46.272)
Mmm.

Cashel Campbell (54:46.418)
Just trying to not be invasive and step and offer, if I am, please tell me to back up. And also like have this really wide shot of like, uh-oh, something tragic is about to happen. Let's, we're gonna do an experiential right now to divert the energy. It's very interesting. It's like, I feel like a pilot in a way. Yeah. Yep. Yes.

MVK (55:03.151)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

MVK (55:09.006)
Yeah, yeah, navigating storms and low visibility.

Cashel Campbell (55:16.506)
Sometimes I don't need any instruction on the instruments and then other times it's like tower, tower.

Cashel Campbell (55:25.35)
Seriously. Yeah.

MVK (55:25.89)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, so that brings me to kind of this, it's similar. It's like, you know, I'm really interested in what emerges, right? What emerges from the group process, from the spontaneous creative group process that is facilitated with finesse and nuance, and yet the third emerges, right? This new knowing, this new...

Cashel Campbell (55:44.742)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (55:48.356)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (55:54.683)
Yes.

MVK (55:55.854)
form, this new sound or movement, whatever it is. And I guess I'd love to hear about your thoughts about emergence and the third and what can come through in this ceremony like, I mean, is ceremony this work is, right, okay, you know.

Cashel Campbell (55:59.985)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (56:04.142)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (56:09.726)
Yes, yes. That's a word, yes. It is, yeah, it is very ceremonious. I think what I've witnessed and what feels like true to me is these new identities that have resolved with the former. So a lot of self-acceptance.

MVK (56:33.001)
Mmm.

Cashel Campbell (56:40.437)
a lot of self-acceptance, a lot of self-realization, a lot of self-patience.

Cashel Campbell (56:50.702)
A lot of listening.

I love to witness that new emergence for students. I love to witness students like come out at the other end and be like, wow, I'm picking up the pieces that you've modeled and laid down about listening and knowing when to, maybe this is not the time for words or you know.

Maybe I need to exit the group circle, stay in the room, but exit the circle. Maybe my presence is agitating what's happening. Really like these internal, their own internal pilot. I think that's the third. It's like their own internal pilot that becomes, yes, a part of them, but similar to my experience where I look at this work like ceremony and ritual, it's this passing on of what is,

MVK (57:29.102)
Well.

Cashel Campbell (57:49.754)
like devout and a part of to me your soul and your work in the world. It's, it's that voice that gets created to show you how to do your work. It's that I literally, I made this one day, I made this, I painted this little hand, you know, and like, I'm looking at it while I'm talking to you, but it's, it is, it's like this emergence of this part, you know, like I have access to this inner tool now that can respond to a crisis.

MVK (58:02.262)
Mmm.

MVK (58:08.674)
love it.

MVK (58:17.539)
Mmm.

Cashel Campbell (58:18.674)
can respond to joy, can respond to ambivalence, can respond to chaos. You know, I mean, I was recently on a train coming home from work and sadly a man, he didn't pass but he had a heart attack on the train. And so they had to put the train out of service until the EMS could come. But they made an announcement and said, if we have any medical professionals on the train, can you please come to the first car?

MVK (58:22.668)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (58:48.47)
And it was the first time I think I heard that and my ears cued into it because I was like, oh, I'm included in that, right? And depending on the kind of emergency it is, I am a medical professional who can respond in the way that hand needs to emerge. And I think just being able to facilitate spaces where people can discover that for themselves, to me, that's just super profound. Because, you know, what...

MVK (59:15.237)
Mm.

Cashel Campbell (59:17.77)
As much as the people in our lives love us and the communities that we have, if we have the honor of being a part of them, care for us or whoever raised us, listen, everyone doesn't have the time and space to give us that, right? We got to sometimes go out and literally pay for it. So run it up. You got to run that money up to get it. And so, you know, I feel like really having the space and the opportunity to create an identity of self that is useful in more than one way in the world.

MVK (59:36.526)
True. Yeah. Yep, yep.

MVK (59:47.879)
Mm-hmm.

Cashel Campbell (59:48.364)
and unique to who you are as well. I think that that's really what I see emerging for students. And I'm again honored to be able to be a part of that.

MVK (59:57.93)
Amen. Amen to that. Absolutely. And I, you know, it's kind of like what you did just there was you did you went full circle, you know, you back to identity and how important it is to be in oneself and to be oneself and to trust oneself, you know, without that I can't see you. I can't trust you if I can't trust me, you know?

Cashel Campbell (59:59.814)
Thank you.

Cashel Campbell (01:00:10.107)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (01:00:14.917)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (01:00:18.766)
Yes.

Cashel Campbell (01:00:23.694)
Yes, yes, that's right, yep. And that's the longevity, I feel, you know, because I know we're coming up on a close, but I really feel like the longevity of the work that we do.

MVK (01:00:27.768)
Oh, so good.

MVK (01:00:34.966)
we are.

Cashel Campbell (01:00:41.238)
It has to include this type of knowledge. That's not mine. It's for me again. It is an ancestral push that I regard right that to commune and communicate care compassion like It's preposterous for me to want to offer someone that space as a therapist, but I don't know how to facilitate it It is in support of racism to continue to work that way right, and so I think that

MVK (01:00:48.236)
Yeah.

Cashel Campbell (01:01:11.29)
I'm honored also to have the position I have in the time that I have it so that I can bring that into my teaching style. And it won't resonate with everyone and that's fine. But the people that it does resonate for or the ones that it doesn't, it may be a manifest later on. I think that this is how we create a new beginning, new entry, a new tolerance that is harmony, really, and accepting of things we like and don't like. And it's okay.

Yeah, so I'm happy to be doing what I'm doing. I'm really, I'm at peace and I am very, very grateful for the role that I have at this time.

MVK (01:01:50.99)
I mean, that is so clear. And it's been a real honor to be in conversation with you today. I'm grateful for the inspiration. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Cashel Campbell (01:01:53.874)
Thank you.

Cashel Campbell (01:02:01.102)
Likewise, likewise, for sure.

Thank you.