Dr. David Gussak Interview: Performance & Mentorship

David E. Gussak, PhD, ATR-BC, HLM is Professor for the Florida State University’s Graduate Art Therapy Program and Project Coordinator for the FSU/FL Dept of Correction’s Art Therapy in Prisons program. He has presented and published extensively internationally and nationally on forensic art therapy and art therapy in forensic settings. These include, amongst others, Art on Trial: Art Therapy for Capital Murder Cases (2013), Art and Art Therapy with the Imprisoned: Re-Creating Identity (2019), and The Frenzied Dance of Art and Violence (2022). In 2022, Dr. Gussak was granted the American Art Therapy Association’s Honorary Lifetime Member (HLM) award.

Transcript

MVK (00:02)
Well, hello, I am excited to welcome Dr. David Gussick to this podcast, Boundaries in Belonging, an arts-based approach. And you have an extensive amount of experience in the art therapy field in the United States, lots of publications, presentations. Your most recent book is The Frenzied Dance of Art and Violence, which I haven't read yet, but I'm looking forward to...

Dave (00:29)
Well that's it, the conversation's over then.

MVK (00:32)
to checking that one out. But we're here today to talk about education, higher education in art therapy in the US. And I would love to hear about your thoughts about boundaries and belonging and how they relate to being a teacher

in higher ed.

Dave (00:55)
Wow. Boy, you started right out of the gate. I like it. You know, I think my work involves a nice mix of boundaries and belongings. And I think a lot of that comes from my own clinical experience, my own background, how I've been raised, my own place in the field, my own identity in the field. And primarily beginning as first a clinician, my expertise is

MVK (00:58)
Thanks for watching!

Dave (01:22)
is fairly focused on working with aggressive and violent clients, particularly with prison systems and forensic systems. And right then and there, you're talking about boundaries that are thrust upon you. I mean, there are certain expectations of the environments that I worked in, in which I was expected to maintain very stringent boundaries while also trying to find a place of belonging.

And that is certainly, I think continues to evolve and vacillate and Have flexible boundaries As I became an educator But what and I am fascinated by the word belonging especially since I was an art therapist early on I mean relatively early on in the early 90s where you leave a graduate program and we all spread out far and wide and I ended up landing in a prison in Northern, California

where there weren't that many of my ilk, so to speak. And I'm in an environment where the notion of therapy is questioned and the notion of exploring the vulnerability of our population has to be kind of tiptoed around. And so I actively sought out belonging within my field, within my environment, while also maintaining my sense of my own personal boundaries.

professional boundaries where I was in the profession and where the profession was in a greater extent while also kind of trying to figure out What to express I remember I had gone to Vermont College Gladys Agell program and Eleanor Ulman was one of our Guest speakers she and Gladys were close friends We'd also of course over the years got a chance to see Edith Kramer and all some wonderful people

But I remember distinctly Eleanor Ullman explaining to us and saying to us, tell the truth, nothing but the truth, but not the whole truth. And I think, and while that has certainly permeated in my professional realm, I think that's also to a certain extent kind of permeated my own personal realm, knowing where to allow the glimpse to help

foster the connection and knowing that the glimpse that I'm hopefully offering can be used by the other party and that's the only glimpse that I'm going to provide. And I think I do that also in teaching as well. I don't think it's unusual for all of my students to have different interpretations on who Gusak is, but on the other hand what I do try and foster is a sense of genuineness.

When I'm in the classroom, I'm going to be who I am and there's no question about who I am. And they know that and they come to expect it. And that also, I hope, encourages them to be who they are in that moment, in that space.

I think I answered that question because it was a, it's a wonderful question that forced me, dare I say, to explore a fairly vulnerable space.

MVK (04:30)
Mm.

Yeah, I appreciate your answer. I mean, I think that teaching can be really vulnerable and being a student can be really vulnerable. And how we hold the space with our students as educators speaks to our ability to hold ourselves and speaks to our authenticity as well. So I really appreciate that being yourself everywhere you are, I think is an important, can be an important way to be.

Dave (05:11)
I hope so. I don't know who else I could be.

MVK (05:15)
That's true. I was wondering if you could share about your teaching experience, where you teach now, what classes that you love. Yeah, what are your favorite things about being an educator?

Dave (05:28)
Oh, there's a lot. And I will say I was lucky in that, just to give you a lineage, I was first offered an opportunity to teach a course on art therapy and correctional environments by Doris Arrington in Northern California when she was still at what was then the College of Notre Dame. And I taught my first weekend workshop and really was just enthralled by this dynamic and getting an opportunity to

MVK (05:30)
I bet.

Peace.

Dave (05:57)
present what I thought worked, but also more selfishly what I could learn from them. And I know every educator says or they strive to do that, but it's truly, I think the basis of what I do is it's exciting. I think I'm open enough and I'm present enough to really recognize that there's so much more that they could teach me. It's purely selfish on my part. And I've been...

MVK (06:00)
Mm.

Dave (06:26)
So I've been doing that since about, you know, I started that in 93 or 94. And then I remember, you know, I knew I wanted to do this. I got a taste of this. And I started doing more and more of these classes because I was presenting at national conferences and I got a chance to be up in front of a person. But even that's somewhat artificial because you're expected to present. Whereas teaching, there's a lot of give and take and a lot of energy and a lot of flexibility and you're performing, right? So.

but more like an improv performer. So while you may have a situation, you're able to roll with it and see what is necessary based on the dynamics and what they're asking of you. And so when it was around 1996, 97, I knew I really wanted to start teaching. And I was debating where I was going in the prison system. I had these opportunities to start climbing the administrative ladder.

But then there was this opportunity to start teaching. And there was a position that opened up in Emporia State University with my old undergraduate teacher, Nancy Knapp, who is now teaching at a graduate program. And I had stayed in touch with her over the years. And I reached out to her and I say, I know you're looking for someone with a doctorate for this position that you have available. I don't have a doctorate, but I would really like to start teaching. Perhaps I can come out and do a weekend workshop or I can do a course. And she said, well,

let's not be too hasty. Why don't you apply for the position? And perhaps we can fold into this understanding that you would get your doctorate and perhaps we can make this work. And so I did so, upon her encouragement, applied for this position in Emporia State. And they offered me the position with the understanding that I would get in order for me to get tenure. If I went tenure track,

eventually I would have to get my doctorate. And so I was first brought out as halftime instructor. So I went from a full-time position as a clinician in the state system with all the bells and whistles of benefits and all that. And here I was teaching, I went to a halftime instructor position, knowing the risk that if I didn't succeed, I'd be tossed out. And I just fell in love with it. This...

I put all my energy into it. I was connected with where I was. I felt this identity just kind of spring up. And every class I entered, I always started with this level of trepidation. To this day, this is 30, let's see, that was 98, so 20, almost 26 years later. I still feel that every time I enter the class and I thrive on that because I don't know what to expect. And there's something amazingly rich about

that.

And so I did unusual classes that people didn't want to teach. I would teach the seven to 10 o'clock at night classes because I could keep the students awake. And I would have this large seminar classroom of the art therapy students, psychology students, special education students teaching assessments and a very complicated level of assessments. And I would keep them engaged and be fed by their reactions and responses and that just, oh, this was amazing. And

then to see their trajectory of learning. So within those four years, I became a halftime instructor to full-time instructor, to tenure track, to the director of the program, all within four years. And in that time, I was able to finish my doctorate. And I had no intention of leaving, except my colleague, by this time, Nancy Knapp had already retired. And then shortly thereafter, she passed away, which was just heartbreaking. And it was just...

And I felt, I have to be honest, I remember, you know, about six to eight months, I was always kind of a little bit lost because I went into her office and took over her office and I became the director, but I didn't touch anything in her office. And I remember distinctly about eight months, I was in Costa Rica doing some work down there and taking some courses. And I had a dream about Nancy and she came to me in a dream and with that laugh of hers, and I'm like,

Nancy, I feel kind of missed without you. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what to do. And I'm in your space. And she started laughing in the dreams. She goes, oh, it's your space now for God's sake. Make it your own. And I woke up with tears in my face and I knew this was my place. And this is what I turned it into. But then about a couple of years later, I got a phone call from my colleague, Marsha Razal. I was on the...

at a board with her and we had done a lot of work together over the years for the National Association and we'd even presented together. She told me about this position that was opening up at a university, a statewide university, didn't have approval yet, but it had a doctoral program. What would it take to get me to go to Florida? I said, nothing, because I don't like Florida. She goes, no, this isn't really Florida. This is like South Georgia. You have to see it. She started explaining some of the things they did. I'm like, no.

but I don't wanna leave Emporia. And then I said, well, let me come out there. And I came out here and it was amazing. It was gorgeous and it was beautiful. And I did a presentation and I got to meet people and I got to, and here was an opportunity for me to really explore my own research. You know, Emporia State was a teacher's college and they certainly encouraged research, but here is where it was expected. And here was the opportunity for me to kind of launch what I had hoped were some really.

exciting projects with people who wanted to know them. And I could help shape the program because we were going to move towards approval and we were going to start looking towards, really kind of solidifying the, going from a three summer program to a two year, two summer program that Dr. Rizal had already established. And so I went back and I spoke to my chair in Emporia State, Dr. Weaver, and I said, Ken, I...

I found this opportunity, they're offering me a lot more, here's all the things I can do and he was wonderful and he said, you know, you've done enough here. You know, we don't want to see you go. Okay, and I said, I'll give you, they want me in August, I'll give you till the end of December, till January and I'll start January 2002. So I'll leave in December 2002, this would.

allowed me to finish things up. I defended my dissertation and I made sure that they hired somebody so I left it

in good hands. And I came here and I've been here 22 years, I guess finishing up my 23rd year or something like that. 22, yeah. And I've moved from being the assistant professor as a clinical coordinator to for a while there, for about 10 years, I was the chair of the Department of Art Education.

MVK (13:13)
Mm.

Dave (13:37)
So we're in the art education and arts administration. We were all interacting. And then about five, six years ago, I stepped down as the chair. So I was the chair for 10 years, which is of course just long enough to ruin any reputation you may have. That allowed me to kind of launch. And I'm now, I've been a full professor since 2013 and I teach whatever they ask me to teach. But I certainly have the classes that I love. I teach, I've been teaching consistently the theories class.

MVK (13:51)
Mm-hmm

Okay.

Dave (14:07)
theories and the history of art therapy. I teach a practicum two class. I teach ethics and professional issues in the spring and I teach program development, which is a class that had some struggles for many years. When I took it over four years ago, I said I'll teach this. Let me do it the way I want to do this. And so I revamped that class and that was so exciting. But since I've been here, I've taught every single class that's been offered here.

and as well as one of the doctoral seminars on philosophy structure. So I got to teach students from all of the programs. And man, I just love it. The students, I mean, don't get me wrong, there are certainly times when it's overwhelming and there's going to be a student or two that's just not getting it or just not connecting with you or quite frankly can't stand you. But, you know, there's a difference between

working in a prison as a therapist and working as a professor at a university. And in some ways there's not, the politics and administration are similar. There's a hierarchy built in that we ourselves are trying to mitigate and trying to kind of negotiate. But then there's always those ah-has where you know the students are getting it when you're there and you feel it. In each class I walk in, doing this for...

however long, and it's always a performance, and I'm coming in, I don't know how they're gonna receive it. And it's just, when it washes over you, and you know you're in the moment, and you know you've got the flow going, and you know you've connected with them, and it's just, oh man, there's nothing like it. I've always said I will stop doing this when it's no longer fun. And every now and then it's come close. But I'm still here.

MVK (15:58)
Mm-hmm. I really appreciate that. I love the performance aspect of being a professor, because it is. It's full-bodied. There's, you know, if you're in a in-person space, there's potentially moving across the room to take up the whole space, right? OK. And are you teaching in person

Dave (16:16)
Oh yeah, always.

MVK (16:21)
or online now?

Dave (16:21)
I'm teaching in person now. When I did it through Zoom, there was still that connectedness, the connections that I, connectedness is a better word, that I wanted to maintain as if I was in the room with them. So there were a lot of gestures. There's a lot of reactions and responses and engagement with each person that was speaking. But I know I'm getting older because when I used to be able to jump on top of the table, now I have to kind of crawl on top. All right, so I'm getting older. But...

MVK (16:48)
Ha ha ha!

Dave (16:50)
But the essence is still there. It's always, and I think part of that is you want the students to pay attention because they don't know what's going to come next. And you keep them on their toes, particularly. And so the quips are coming and the jokes are happening, but folded up in those jokes and those stories and those narratives are the essence of what we're trying to teach. And we're not trying to go for the profound, but we're going for their...

You know, you stay five minutes ahead of them. You want them to take that one nugget away from each class. And you want to be there, be present with them and really pay attention. Because again, like I say, I'm learning a great deal from them and that's just not banality. That's not hyperbole. It really is a give and take at all levels.

MVK (17:42)
Yeah, absolutely. And I imagine that the way that you use the space, the way you use humor, also helps to facilitate trust and belonging in the space between students, with the group, between you and each student. I'm curious if you could speak a little bit to that.

Dave (18:03)
And I think 99.3% of the time, there is creates a connection through the humor, through the humor and the humaneness. And I don't think it's a coincidence that they both start with the same few letters. I think because it's important for us to recognize that there's humor in everything. And that just allows us to see things from a different perspective. And when we learn to see things from a different perspective, we gain so much more knowledge about it because it gives us the distance, it gives us the presence, it allows us.

to really reflect on it, but it also engages them. And I think they see me as somebody who's approachable, somebody, you know, and that my humor and my presence and my work comes out of real life experience, you know? And I think, and I think they recognize that. I do think that they're, that gives them freedom to express themselves the way they want to. Now I'm not saying it doesn't intimidate some, right? Some people will close.

but that's few and far between. And even they feel an openness to connect and to experiment because that's really all we're asking them to do is take risks and experimenting. And there's nothing riskier than us as professors standing in front of them and trying to see if what we're saying lands the right way. I mean, that's a huge risk. And if we're willing to take that risk, well, dang it, they're certainly going to. And they're gonna wanna earn that. They wanna earn the recognition of the risks that they're taking.

MVK (19:30)
Absolutely. And that's part of the relationship is also validating those risks that are being taken in the group.

Dave (19:38)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, you talk about trust, and I think, you know, it's the metaphorical trust fall. You know, we're gonna fall. Sometimes we fall flat on our face, and it's our acknowledgement of that fall sometimes that's even more potent when I'm like, I'm able to say, okay, I can see what you're saying, and I can see why you're reacting that way and responding that way, and yeah, I'm wrong, you know? And there's, I see how what I'm saying can be construed this way, or, now there's always,

There is a tendency for every now and then for somebody to weaponize some of the things that's going on in the world and they use that and we have to kind of roll with that too and try to figure out where's our space in that. But for the most part, they want, the difference between working inside the prisons and working here is the people that I work with here do want to connect and maintain the trust because while some of them have been burned by trust, they want to connect, they see that.

which is a little different than my experiences before, but it's always the same challenge of how do I reach out my hand and prevent it from being slapped away?

MVK (20:37)
Mm-hmm.

Ooh, yeah, because each and every individual that comes into the space is bringing a long history of experiences with other humans, whether in group or individually and in the education system. I mean, it takes, it's a long journey to get up to higher ed, to get to a grad program or a PhD in art therapy. A lot of experiences.

Dave (21:05)
Oh, absolutely. And it's important for us as educators to remember that there's been this long journey. And then if I have a class of 20 people, each one of them had their own completely different journey. But also, you know, just because they're in the classroom, it's not a guarantee either. That they're at the tail end of that journey and they're going to get to cross that finish line. It's just that perhaps, you know, allow me to hold out my hand and help you along.

MVK (21:07)
Yeah.

Dave (21:35)
Um, and, and know that it's some, for some people crossing that finish line may take a little longer, may take a different path. Um, and I have to acknowledge each one of their experiences. And at the same time, hoping that I'm a three-dimensional instructor, that I'm not a two-dimensional caricature, so they know that I have had those experiences. And I've had whether or not I articulate them or not, but there are certain experiences that I have now.

MVK (21:44)
Mm.

Dave (22:02)
that I certainly bring into the conversation that are genuine because those are my real life experiences. And they know that I've had a long journey to get to where I am. And my journey, the only differences between my journey and theirs is mine's been a lot longer. And so while there's what I'm, lately, particularly as things evolve and I recognize my own place in the field and in the world at large, I acknowledge my own privilege, my own white male identity and how

in a room full of oftentimes women, oftentimes women of different identities, I have to acknowledge my own identity, my own privilege and recognize that I need to learn from you and I'm going to pay attention. But on the other hand, there's still a different kind of hierarchy, which is I've had that experience. And whether you accept that I've had that experience, whether or not you want to internalize some of the feedback that I'm giving, that's up to you.

but know that where I've been and who I've been informs what I'm doing that much longer. And that's really the only difference.

MVK (23:11)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (23:13)
What I've done is learned how to articulate it. I think the biggest frustration I had was when I was in graduate school. And again, I don't speak ill of nobody. I'm just amazing what I've learned from all of the professors who are now my colleagues and friends.

MVK (23:16)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (23:30)
But Eleanor Ullman came in one time and she had all of these drawings up on the wall from the UPAP and the Ullman Personality Assessment Procedure and she started identifying all of these drawings and well that means that and this means that. And I was, I want you to know, how did you see that? Where did you connect that? What's, oh it's there, it's all there in the drawings. And there was really very, there wasn't that rationale or justification, she didn't connect the dots. And one of the things that I'm very careful about is, I may,

be able to get to that end line, but I'm gonna explain to you how I got there. And that's what's so important. And not only am I gonna explain it, but I'm gonna require you to do that. And so, yes, tell me why you're doing what you're doing. And I may not agree with what you're doing, and I may not agree with your decision and your rationale for that theoretical orientation for this particular situation, but if you can rationalize it and justify it and use a shared language and a negotiation that I can understand and appreciate.

MVK (24:10)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dave (24:29)
professionally and clinically, then you're golden. I would much rather prefer that than somebody use a theoretical orientation or apply a particular intervention or connect with somebody in a way that resonates with me, but they can't explain how they got there. Well, to me, that's kind of useless.

MVK (24:32)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so there's a big piece around supporting students and being able to narrate their reasons, right? Being able to understand how they make choices and why they're making these choices.

Dave (25:04)
and listening to those. Everyone wants to narrate and it's really.

Too many people are always sitting there and listening. Well, they're not listening. While the person's speaking, they're already formulating the next statement. And I admit I've had to train myself out of that over all these years, but to be present and actually pay attention to what they're saying and give it a moment and then launch into what it is that I wanna say or recognize, maybe I'm not the right person to respond to this, but.

You know, Jennifer over here is, or Christina over here can do that, or Kalia over here is really can fill in the blanks and then maybe I can come in afterwards and play cleanup.

MVK (25:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I really appreciate, it's like you're talking about walking this line as an educator where you are responsible, right? Responsible for supporting students in this narrative or in narrating themselves and their choices and also being humble, being humble in your social location and perhaps some of the biases that you might

hold.

and then really honoring your own experience in this field, in life, and bringing that to your students.

Dave (26:28)
Wow, the way you describe it makes it sound very complicated. I'd like to think that I'm humble, but I know sometimes I'm not. And I think there's something embedded in humor that kind of belies humility, right? Because part of that is still, I am seeing this from this perspective, although quite honestly, when I say to my students, for the record, the jokes aren't for you, they're for me. I think there's a certain truth to that.

MVK (26:31)
Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Dave (26:57)
But I do think, I hope that there's a humility in what I do and what I teach. And when I lose that humility, that's when I think things start to go rough and I have to kind of latch back onto that. And, you know, there have been many moments in my career where I've been riding high and I have enjoyed it and it's wonderful. And then there are the lows. And I have to remember that even in those lows,

there's a privilege to get to do what I do. And that's exciting and that's also humbling because like I've said repeatedly, the students allow me to do this. And the other thing I remind them is, right now you're my student and I'm your teacher and come August next year we're colleagues. And I want to make sure that we remain that way. And that...

your colleague that I want to work with and that I continue to be the colleague you want to work with And and I think that's important because it's an indoctrination into the same system You know not indoctrination that sounds I live in florida. That shouldn't be a word. I use I think that there's We'll get to that later, but I think that um That there's certainly you know, what i'm doing is hopefully Hopefully widening this widening the system so that there's room for more of us and

MVK (27:58)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dave (28:23)
And what I'm really trying to do now, I'm really at this point in my career that I'm ready to move away, move aside. And so lately the past, well, I still, the Frenzy Dance of Art and Violence truly is my last book. It's my last solo authored book. Marcia Rizal and I are doing the second edition of the Wiley Hand book. And that's, so that's a final book project and that will be a final book project. And I'm still engaged in writing and presenting.

And I'm on top of doing this, I'm also the director of the Florida State University Florida Department of Corrections Art Therapy and Prisons Program. But part of my dynamic here is preparing others to do it. And so I've been mentoring people to write and then we'll write an article together and I'll be the second author and consistently second author and I'll be the fifth author or I'll be seventh author. And eventually I'll be the non author. And I'm.

ready to just say, you guys take it away. You don't need me to do this. And it's happening with the prison project. Next summer, I'll be stepping back in my role to allow the two art therapists who started, we've expanded the program at the first two to rise to a different administrative level and I'll be a consultant and then step totally away. They're presenting for the first time by themselves this year. Their proposal was amazing, better than anything I could have helped put together.

We've just had another article accepted. And again, that's one of those articles where I'm the sixth author. I'm working with these art therapists in India where the deal I made, because they wanted me to help them write an article. And I would co-author and I said, here's the deal. I'll be the fourth and final author. If you promise that afterwards, you'll do another article without me. But I'm grandiose enough that you acknowledge me in the acknowledgements and then we'll call that good.

And so there's still a selfishness as part of that as well, because you wanna make sure that other people are continuing the work long after you're gone.

MVK (30:31)
Mm-hmm. Well, I imagine too it's an honoring of the work. Like knowing that the what you have created, what you have participated in, is worth continuing also. Yeah. Right.

Dave (30:44)
I think so, and still making it their own. I have to be willing to allow that to happen. And there's something very humbling about that and something very selfish about that. Because it's humbling that they take it and make it their own, but there's something selfish about them wanting to do that and seeing a value and owning it as well and owning a piece of it themselves. Yeah.

MVK (30:50)
Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you know, while you were just talking about taking a step back, what I heard in that is how important mentorship is to you, both in how you got to where you are, you know, thinking about some of the mentors for you that you mentioned, and then also how you are making space for lifting up.

and helping other helping students and graduates navigate the field. And I'm curious about what are what are your responsibilities as a mentor to the students into the field? And you know there's this term gatekeeping that is sometimes thrown around as like yeah of course we're going to gatekeep and then when we really sit down with that term

there may be some imagery around that doesn't settle so great, right? Who's allowed in, who's not allowed in, who gets to make those decisions and why? So I'm curious how do you conceptualize your responsibilities to the field and navigating gatekeeping as an educator?

Dave (32:27)
Yeah, it's funny that you're saying, who do we allow in? I think we allow everybody in. It depends who we allow out again after. And that's probably from my own background. I think, you know, your timing is good. My colleague, Bonnie Malhotra up in Pennsylvania, she and I did an article last year about mentoring, the mentoring dynamic and what started off as, and we discuss not only mentoring, and in the previous articles before that, that was always a thread through it.

So we finally decided to let's just bite the bullet and write the article about mentoring. And she's from India, I'm from here. We were examining and looking at, you know, Western and Eastern perspectives and the dynamics and the shift of my role as mentor to mentee at times and her role as mentee to mentor at times and how it's interchangeable if it's a true dynamic, which is why we still present together. We're presenting together at the conference this year on writing.

And I think part of my role...

Way back when I went to graduate school, I had Gladys Segell, who was wonderful, and I had some wonderful educators as I indicated. And I said this last year, I indicated this in the HLM. I received the HLM for the National Association and I had some fun with my speech. I had a lot of fun with the speech, but I acknowledge Gladys Segell, who I said during the presentation, I said, who actually incidentally is the one that said that I couldn't write.

but I would be a competent art therapist. And I said, and it just goes to show you that sometimes our educators are completely wrong because I'm a mildly competent clinician at best. And it was always funny because she hated my writing in graduate school, hated it. And I don't like writing to this day, I hate writing. But, and she didn't care for it and...

MVK (34:07)
Thanks for watching!

Wow.

Dave (34:25)
So as I went into the field, I was like, I'm not a good writer. I don't know how to, but I can speak and I can present.

But little by little, people wanted to read some of the things that we were describing. And so in 1997, I did the book Drawing Time. I had some articles come out. I'm up in Vermont gathering data for some research I'm doing for my dissertation. And Gladys and I stayed close. So she allowed me to stay at her house for about a week, week and a half.

And part of the agreement was I would go teach a class for her while I was doing this, while I was gathering data. And at the end of the trip, she approached me and she said, Dave, as I was leaving, she said, we have this position available on the American Journal of Art Therapy. And as an editor, we'd like you to consider being on the editorial board. And I said, so Gladys, I thought you said I couldn't write. And she said, when did I say that? I said, you said that in graduate school. And she looked at me.

got a little twinkle in her eye and she goes, you can't write, but you can edit. And I think that there was, I thought it was brilliant because I'm like, she's right. Because that's why I can write. I hate writing, but I love the editing part. And to me that's magical. And because I don't marry my words and I'm not married to the sentence and I can play around with it. And so as I started becoming a mentor, and as I, so see there was going somewhere with this, I will be answering your question.

MVK (35:37)
Mm.

Dave (35:49)
And as I started working towards being a mentor and I started working towards connecting with other people, what I really wanted to do was democratize and demystify the writing process, the presenting process, the work that we do to kind of knock it off its pedestal, and say, look, we all have something to say. Now, doesn't mean we're all going to say it well, and maybe we're not always gonna write well, but we can learn that. And...

as long as you find someone who's willing to come along for the ride. And your ideas are worth writing about and perhaps somebody like me can help shape it because eventually you see how I'm shaping it and you'll start shaping it that way. And before you know it, I'm gonna wanna shape my words to the way you're doing it. And so I think that there is, the mentoring dynamic is open enough for us to say, there's room here for all of us, as long as you're open to.

being engaged and accepting that criticism while also taking the teacher role. Now, when it comes to the notion of the gatekeeper role, I really sincerely believe that we have a responsibility to the field, whatever that looks like. I mean, I wrote an article in 2000 about the Invisible College of Art Therapy, about art therapists, where I didn't actually, I mean, things have evolved since then, but I argued that we weren't necessarily a profession. We were just an idea.

surrounded by professionals who all adopted similar concepts. And to a certain extent, I still hold on to that. But I think that my responsibility isn't necessarily, and this is a grandiose vision, isn't necessarily to the field, but it's to the people that the field wants to support. And it's to the people that depend upon us. Or,

want to work with us and being open to, you know, us being open to changing our perspectives on what the notion of going shifting from the medical model to a wellness model to a social justice model, being open to that and knowing that along that journey there are people out there that we're responsible for and that make us responsible. And so we're not gatekeepers as much as what we're

education to 20 students. But essentially that makes me responsible, at least in the first few years, for hundreds upon hundreds of people that they're providing services for. And you say it that way, and all of a sudden the weight becomes that much heavier on your shoulders. But when we start recognizing that, yes, there's times that we accommodate the needs of our clients in our classroom, I'm sorry, it was a Freudian slip, I suppose.

MVK (38:32)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (38:44)
where we start accommodating the needs of our students in the classroom. And we need to accommodate to a certain extent. It's a different day and age, and there's certain challenges that we're not even barely scratching the surface of. But at the same time, while we're challenging that and we're accounting for that and we're providing space for that, know that the minute they get into the setting, their accommodation ends and the accommodations that they need to provide others begins. And that's, they have to be ready for that.

MVK (39:08)
Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Dave (39:13)
and part of that is developing a very thick skin.

MVK (39:18)
Yeah, and a deep practice in self-reflection.

Dave (39:23)
Oh, constantly.

MVK (39:24)
You know, I really appreciate the Freudian slip because I think that in arts-based education, there is so much comes up, right? So much comes up in the group process, so much comes up for individuals in the art-making process. And so there's some navigating around being a therapeutic educator.

or facilitating a somewhat therapeutic environment. So I'm curious, what do you think about that? What does that look like for you?

Dave (40:04)
I think it's a very, very fine balance. I've seen educators that are very much like therapists and to the point that sometimes they lose that within the dynamic and other times they're not enough of a therapist. And I would argue that there have been moments that I've probably done the same thing on both levels. But I'm constantly checking my own boundaries to wonder, am I over, you know, I provide a space for my,

students. I appreciated what a colleague of mine once said, Dr. Ben Lith, people used to always say safe space, you know, we're going to provide a safe space. And it was always an unusual term for me. And I didn't quite always accept that because there's nothing safe about what we do. But then she changed the term to brave space. And I think that there's something to that, that we give them this space to be brave. And it's even being brave in their cowardice and being brave in their challenges and

brave in their vulnerabilities. And we have to be prepared for that and know that there might be weeks that go by that our students really require special attention and recognition of all their pain they're going through, while at the same time, having them develop their own coping mechanisms because they're gonna continue dealing with these.

MVK (41:07)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (41:31)
And I think that's the biggest challenge about being an educator as well. We as clinicians have evolved as we go over the 20, 30 years where we start with struggling with those vulnerabilities till we develop our own strategies and compartmentalization or whatever happens so that we're that much stronger. But every year as an educator, I go through the same thing where my students go through those trajectories of vulnerabilities and feeling overwhelmed. And I welcome the moments when they're vulnerable and they're...

challenging themselves and they're having real life events. And I remind my students that your life events are not going to stop when you're in the classroom. And they're certainly not gonna stop when you're sitting across from someone who's also vulnerable and needs your attention. And so how present can you be with them? And I'm gonna be as present as I can for them and I'm going to provide them the metaphorical holding space. And also.

let them know that there's a limit to this, you know? There's a space for this. And sometimes having them challenge their own perspectives of as we go through this vulnerability, how is this vulnerability supporting us and challenging us and how much of it is hindering us? And having them, they're gonna have to learn to ask the questions themselves, because again, we're in a day and age, which is difficult for us to ask them that question. So we provide opportunities for them to learn how to look inwards.

MVK (42:45)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (42:59)
And self-reflection is extremely important. And I get frightened when we come across that rare student that has no ability for self-reflection. And we remember the line from Bull Durham, my cousin and I love to state this all the time, some people are just not cursed with the ability for self-reflection. And it can be a curse, but I think it's necessary for what we do. And every now and then we have a student that's unable to do that, and those are the ones that scare me.

MVK (43:25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can appreciate that. There seems to be, you know, there can be a spectrum in the classroom of students who are working on reigning the, they're sharing in, right, are regulating their emotions and being present for the group. And then there are the, maybe the, I don't know if it's the other end of the spectrum, but

students who have a harder time speaking to who they are or how they feel or what they think. And then also are perhaps disconnected from the rest of the group as well, like different ways to be disconnected. But I'm curious about with all of that, where does tension come up in your examples that feel comfortable in sharing or, you know, how you facilitate conflict when it shows up.

Dave (44:32)
Well, I think the tension is always going to come up with the challenges and that's challenging their worldviews. And that means some, you know, and that may be along the progressive spectrum and recognizing some of the people that you're going to work with will be people that you probably never would speak with out on the streets and people that may frighten you and challenging them to really open up their idea of who.

MVK (44:37)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (45:01)
deserves their attention. And there's always a tension in that. But what I enjoy the most, and this was something that I was taught by Paula Howey, and I don't think she remembers that she taught us this, is...

You know, and way back when, when she was a young art therapist who was teaching a class for Gladys Agell, she was a brilliant educator, we took, I think it was adolescent art therapy from her. It was about learning how to be okay with the silence. And there was that one class that we had with her, where she brought that up. And then for one, I would...

I would dare say it was for an hour and who knows, my memory is 33 years old. But where we all, the class of 15 of us just sat there and looked at each other and nobody was willing to break the silence. And we were silent for, until the end of class when Paula said, class is over. Well, one of the things I challenge my students about is, shut up. You know, don't speak, be okay with the silence. So I'll often mirror that and they'll say something

while I am loquacious and I say that because I love using the word loquacious, but I can certainly be gregarious and I'll jump around and everything, but at the same time I also know when to stop and know where my filter is. And so being silent, that's often where the tension is in the unspoken word that's not yet there and what's happening in this. And there's a connection and an electricity that's either between you and the student or you and all the students.

where it's just a matter of...

and they have to, I mean, even that, you know, you feel it can be awkward. And we're okay with this awkwardness because you're going to be dealing with a lot of awkwardness.

MVK (46:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. It makes me wonder about the relationship between experiencing awkwardness as a student or as a professor in a group setting and how awkwardness, anxiety, heartbreak, heartache are woven together in how humans show up in groups.

And I'm wondering, you know, when you think about heartache and heartbreak as a human, are there ways that being, are the ways that higher ed encourages heartache or heartbreak in classrooms or in the curriculum or, you know, just in this process? Or where do you see it?

Dave (47:53)
I don't know if they necessarily, well, it depends on what you mean by higher education. Do you mean the higher education program or the system that higher program is embedded in, which sometimes it runs in conflict with? I suspect if you mean the former, does the program encourage heartbreak or heartache? And I would argue that it doesn't necessarily encourage it, but it certainly facilitates it. And it certainly in times induces it.

and at times needs to acknowledge it and help step over it and know that it's just, again, a part of life, whether it's our own heartache, our students' heartache, or all of our heartache together. I think it's artificial when we have the, and I know it's important when we lose a student for some god-awful reason, and you have everybody come together and you reflect on that,

do art work around it and you address this heartache. And I, you know, that's wonderful and it's true and it's acknowledging the heartache that we experience as a group. And yet why don't we do that for all the other heartaches that we all deal with, the loss that we all have by being present in this group and being present in the class or going through this process of recognizing that this is a lot more complicated than we thought it was. And there's a loss in that as well. So I think you can't escape from heartache and heartbreak and tension and anxiety.

And yet we're just a microcosm to what they're going to experience out there. The difference is we're providing a safety

net.

MVK (49:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, agreed. What are the components of that safety net?

Dave (49:38)
Well, they know that we'll only let them fail so far before we step in to either acknowledge that failure, offer opportunities to remedy that failure, help rectify it, or help be the auxiliary ego that they may need at that moment. And it's funny, because I'm throwing around a lot of different theoretical terms from all sorts of different theories. And I only have really one theoretical orientation that I finally subscribe to, but I can speak the language.

MVK (50:10)
Yeah, a lot of good words that do describe, you know, what we're talking about here. How about we pivot to art materials? What are your favorite art materials to play with as an educator and facilitating groups? What directives do you love to make happen?

Dave (50:38)
I enjoy the unusual. I mean, for the longest time, I taught the therapeutic use of art materials. And certainly, while I may teach about the traditional materials, I certainly enjoy non-traditional materials that people don't even think about bringing into a session. I love personally, my own personal preference, while I will paint and I'll sketch and I'll do watercolors and whatnot, if given the time and the inclination, I love printmaking.

printmaking, because I love the physicality of carving a board and the cognitive process of looking at the negative space and the reverse, and the emotional response and reaction to the feel of the ink and the pulling it off and the running the pieces and how expressive it can be. You're constrained by the parameters of this block, but you can be so expressive in it. And that's what I really encourage my students to break them out of the ho-hum and the ordinary.

How do we start experimenting with found objects? How do we start doing face masks out of plaster of Paris or plaster hand sculptures where their hands are bound together for three hours and then, or not three hours, you know, 20, 30 minutes and they pull their hands out and there's this wonderful amorphous shape that they can turn into a sculpture. And some people love it and some people hate it, but there's always gonna elicit a response and that's the key for it, is what materials are we going to use that elicit response? Because, and what I balk against and I'm going off in a different direction,

But what I balk against is the, I always say to my students, use whatever you want in a session, but don't tell me that you're choosing to use it because they like it or they're having fun. That's not what this is about. If they have fun, great, means they'll come back. But that's not what this is about. Therapy ain't comfortable. And part of what we do is offer opportunities for really building in the tension. And so the materials we'll offer really understand the MDV and the movement along the ETC because

our job is to help facilitate those connections and sometimes that's offering materials that they're not comfortable with and certainly offering materials you're not comfortable with. And if you're not comfortable with them, they're gonna see that. So gaining at least the poker face to bring in these materials that they can start playing with. So I will use anything and everything that I can in any situation within the confines of the institutions that I work in. Now, having said that.

MVK (52:45)
Mm.

Dave (53:00)
Working in the prison, and I use this as the example all the time, working in the prison, certain materials I wasn't allowed to use. Like for example, you couldn't make a plaster of Paris mask, right, because they can paint it purple, yellow, green, purple, you know, pink and violet, and cover it with bangles and feathers, look like the warden, and just walk out the front door. All right, so instead, we create different ways of making masks, because that's important inside a prison. They can't use clay, right?

Because you can actually stuff the locks you can stuff the toilets you can do different things to clay That's you know can certainly destroy the institution because prisons are reactive and people have done this with clay So instead I'll bring in a blender For some reason that allowed me to bring in a blender and I'll make homemade paper and they'll create that into three-dimensional forms and sculpt it And I suspect they allow me to bring in the blender because a they've never had an experience

with somebody bringing in a blender and B, they want margaritas after the session, I don't know. So I think, thank you. So I think that there's, you know, that's the ode to Jimmy Buffett, just I'm putting that out there. So I think that I'll use the materials that I know will elicit a tension and a response at the right time, if that helps. So some of that, now in theories class, sometimes I have time for art materials, sometimes I don't.

MVK (54:00)
ba-da-ba

delay.

Dave (54:23)
but certainly in program development, in ethics we'll play around with it, practicum we'll experiment with it, therapeutic use of art materials, when I taught that I would go all in, you know? Yeah.

MVK (54:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, the therapeutic use of materials or techniques and art therapy, those courses just really offer a wide array of exploration and experimentation. Yeah. Favorite. Favorite class to teach. I guess with that, one of my last wonderings is really about flow.

And what flow looks like in your classrooms, whether it's how the performance of teaching is moving, or how the group art experience is moving, or the conversation. I just, when you hear that, are there examples or images that come to mind, or felt sense of flow in the classroom?

Dave (55:27)
I think it's constant, you know, and I've had my own experience with the academic and scholarly side of Csíkszentmihályi's work with a number of my doctoral students who have explored that with their own work. And so I've certainly become familiar with the notion. But I think, you know, the notion of hyperfocus is thrown around, but that has a connotation of being somewhat challenging or negative. But I do think there's something about an immersion in that.

And you know that when everybody is amorphically connected and that you may have had an agenda and you may have PowerPoints to help create parameters, but when the conversation moves beyond that because it's got its own life and everyone's engaged in the conversation and everyone's present and everyone's moving together with it and there's a conversation and you're facilitating it rather than talking at, and then you realize before you know it, three hours are gone.

and everyone got to where they were supposed to be. And there's that flow of being very present and allowing the moment to work with you. Every now and then you can maybe kind of redirect it and help kind of construct a new direction. And you could tell when the flow is interrupted, but even those moments I try and build into the flow, the two.

required breaks. Now I know some people take one break during a three hour class, but I've got so much going on and so much movement that we need those breaks that aren't artificial. You feel when it's time to just get the lull so that you can come back up again. And I just think it's naturally built into a true learning dynamic.

MVK (57:02)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Totally. And it sounds really dynamic. I mean, it sounds like a dance that everybody has a part in. It's a frenzy dance. Well, I'm curious if there's anything else that feels important to share about who you are as an educator or about the art therapy field as a way to close.

Dave (57:19)
Oh, yeah. It's a frenzied dance. Yeah.

Wow, that's great. I think the art therapy field as a whole is coming into its own reckoning and a lot of changes that we're shifting. Some of us older people need to move aside for some younger educators. And I don't mean just younger in age, but younger in the field where some new ideas are fresh. I think the association has to recognize the systems that we find ourselves in. Again, I'm in Florida.

And while I have very open perspectives on what to teach and how to teach it, I have to be very clever in how I teach it because of what is now allowed in a public institution. And that's not always acknowledged, but some of the challenges now, of course, it is as well in many other places. So I think lately, I mean, your timing is very interesting because I do think higher education is under the gun, under the, as a target.

for those who don't fully understand. And that includes us. But when all is said and done, I still to this day love what I do, even when there are days that I don't like it. And I take pride in being able to look at my former students who are out there making their own mark and doing incredible work. When...

my students' student will come to see me and say, you're our grandparent and that's a little frightening. I think that there's a richness to that. So the challenge is certainly offset by the excitement.

MVK (59:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, what a legacy to witness it being, you know, received. Yeah.

Dave (59:31)
I hope so. By that time I'll be dead, so who cares?

MVK (59:36)
Got you. And there's still an active engagement in it right now. I really appreciate all that you've shared. Your clear love for being in relationship and mentoring and being a part of kind of just the dramatic dance that is teaching in an art therapy program. So yeah, I really, just really appreciative of you being here and talking to me and.

us about all of this.

Dave (01:00:07)
Yeah, but it's my pleasure. I look forward to seeing how these evolve and how they develop. And this is, this was a lot of fun and I appreciate that. Thank you. My pleasure.

MVK (01:00:11)
Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. I'm gonna stop recording and then we can just close up. Okay, all right, let me do that.

Dave (01:00:23)
Sure, absolutely.